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RR OPINION: Cattermole Form Warrants International Recognition

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GK said:
Let's get this straight here. The term international class is completely dependent on the international team you play for.

Shola is good enough for Nigeria and could be considered international class there. However in England he isn't international class ie he isn't good enough for the national team/international football.
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Wooo, now I'm completely lost, because as far as I can see England are collectively shite and many of our players are technically limited and rarely perform against anyone of quality. If the term "international class" now doesn't just apply to players like Ashley Cole, Rio etc who were comfortable at international level and have stood out over the years and instead now means the players who perform adequately to the level the team is at (i.e. now not a very high standard), then now I'm wondering exactly who is 'international class' for England and surely the barometer is almost at an all time low?
 

Perryqhill said:
Wooo, now I'm completely lost, because as far as I can see England are collectively shite and many of our players are technically limited and rarely perform against anyone of quality. If the term "international class" now doesn't just apply to players like Ashley Cole, Rio etc who were comfortable at international level and have stood out over the years and instead now means the players who perform adequately to the level the team is at, then now I'm wondering exactly who is 'international class' for England.
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Eh?
 
GK said:
It depends on the country man. To play and excel with e.g. the USA is a far lower standard than playing and excelling with e.g. Germany
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That's why I suggested the general standard of the 32 teams at a world cup finals rather than a given team. Germany might have a world class player in their bench and international class players not getting into the final 23, while England might have players in their first team who are not good enough to perform effectively at a finals.
 
GK said:
Henderson, Wilshere, Barkley, Milner, Chamberlain

Defensive midfielder is a bit of a crisis position for England - putting in a player who isn't good enough isn't the answer though. He'd get slaughtered.
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:eek: He's not as good as Rooney at CF or Hart in Goal either.

GK said:
Because he plays for Sunderland and not England.
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Eh? You think international play is of a higher standard than the Prem (and we're back to Gary Medel)?
 
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sonson said:
Aye, cos that's what I said, you child.

He's had frequent periods of putting 3 or 4 games together then having 2 or 3 bad ones. That's my point. It's hardly rare for him to have a good string of games together. He's had two so far. If, after half a season, he's had a good number of games better than worse, than I'll believe he's reached the sort of performance level required. Otherwise, I'll just continue to think there's a reason he's here rather than somewhere better, because for all he's great on his day he's also excellent at self sabotage and playing badly to the same extent.
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Cattermole had a good stream of games last season where he reached a good level, in fact most of it. I had my reservations about him ever doing it at the start of the season, but he did.
 
GK said:
I wouldn't choose Catermole over Gerrard ecause of Gerrards far far superior distribution/goalscoring. He's not the best in the world at that position granted but he scored 14 and had 14 assists last season. True he made errors but I will never ever forget Cattermole against Villa, Hull and City away.
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The defensive side of Gerrards game is so lacking, though. The only reason he has any positional discipline these days is that his legs are completely shot. Given Englands standing in world football we'd need a defensive midfielder to emphasise the destructive part of his game first and foremost.
 
sonson said:
Aye, cos that's what I said, you child.

He's had frequent periods of putting 3 or 4 games together then having 2 or 3 bad ones. That's my point. It's hardly rare for him to have a good string of games together. He's had two so far. If, after half a season, he's had a good number of games better than worse, than I'll believe he's reached the sort of performance level required. Otherwise, I'll just continue to think there's a reason he's here rather than somewhere better, because for all he's great on his day he's also excellent at self sabotage and playing badly to the same extent.
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Generally speaking we probably think along the same lines, but don't get arsey because what you've said sounds bloody stupid....All I've done is picked you up on it.

Child :rolleyes:
 
Perryqhill said:
Cattermole had a good stream of games last season where he reached a good level, in fact most of it. I had my reservations about him ever doing it at the start of the season, but he did.
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I'd say he was good final third, he was nowt special like pretty much everyone else for the majority of it in my opinion.

Fundamentally though it comes down to your point above. If Cattermole is England class that says far more about where England is at, in a bad way, then it suggests Cattermole is England's Michael Essien

UaeExile said:
Generally speaking we probably think along the same lines, but don't get arsey because what you've said sounds bloody stupid....All I've done is picked you up on it.

Child :rolleyes:
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Sorry, bad day :oops:
 
sonson said:
I'd say he was good final third, he was nowt special like pretty much everyone else for the majority of it in my opinion.

Fundamentally though it comes down to your point above. If Cattermole is England class that says far more about where England is at, in a bad way, then it suggests Cattermole is England's Michael Essien



Sorry, bad day :oops:
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No worries mate... I'm pissed so angling for an argument :lol:
 
GK said:
Let's get this straight here. The term international class is completely dependent on the international team you play for.

Shola is good enough for Nigeria and could be considered international class there. However in England he isn't international class ie he isn't good enough for the national team/international football.
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No, that can't be right. A German player who would walk into the England team but isn't good enough for the final 23 of Germany and is therefore not international class? And Jagielka is automatically international class because he's getting a game for England as are the San Marino team?

It also means that if Cattermole gets picked for England then he is by definition, international class.
 
GK said:
So would he shine for England or one of the top nations?



Cattermole would not shine for England. He's not technically good enough to shine at that level. I'm sure you already understood that when people refer to International Class they are referring to players that excel at that level.
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He would be able to perform comfortably at that level. I think you are getting world class mixed up with international class.
 
Cockney Mackem said:
No, that can't be right. A German player who would walk into the England team but isn't good enough for the final 23 of Germany and is therefore not international class? And Jagielka is automatically international class because he's getting a game for England as are the San Marino team?

It also means that if Cattermole gets picked for England then he is by definition, international class.
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Cattermole getting picked by an England manager means nothing of the sort. Well not according to me anyway, everyone's opinion varies. There is no standard definition. If international class in your world includes Geoff Thomas then Cattermole is international class. If international class means you shine at that level then he is nowhere near international class.

It feels like I've typed this about 20 times now.
 
Woy should have been sacked for our woeful showing at the world cup. Like it or not if England are to progress in the short term they have to have to recognise how poor we have been as a team. The Italy game for example was a 'good performance' in many eyes. Rubbish, we gifted them 4 or 5 gilt edged chances (2 goals, a last ditch goal line clearance and they hit the bar) and barely created 3 or 4 decent chances of our own. We were nothing but a half thought out rabble at the world cup, struggling against 2 average sides on paper but whose teams were more than a sum of their parts unlike ourselves.

We need to assemble a proper team, with a solid formation and foundation making ourselves hard to beat whilst still retaining an attacking threat from our pacey kids. We have one world class player, Rooney who hasn't turned up much internationally. We have a handful of decent younger players and lots of slightly older but average players at world level. We have a very average back 4 and both full backs are poor defenders. Baines, Jagielka and Johnson are rank average internationally. Cahill is still a work in progress at top level, way behind the standard of Terry at the same age. We have a talented, young and non tackling set of midfielders. We lack a captain and leaders on the pitch, even Joe Hart has been touted as captain material!

All those areas taken together show we need a leader, someone who can protect both our fragile defence and our young, talented but largely attacking midfielders. Is it worth picking Barry who is painfully slow and 34 in February? Or the out of form (and currently injured) Carrick? Colback perhaps? The man couldn't lace Cattermoles boots in terms of leadership or regularly turning in MotM displays.

I was watching Lee closely on Saturday, he spotted the danger every time (mainly Rooney or Van Persie dropping deep) and took the ball off Van Persie easily first half and was snapping at his heels when Vergini made that tackle. His reading of the game was superb.

I'll not be holding my breath as I doubt Woy has the sense or the balls to pick him.
 
mart said:
He would be able to perform comfortably at that level. I think you are getting world class mixed up with international class.
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I disagree, I think he'd be slaughtered for poor technique. If he made a mistake on par with e.g. Villa, Hull or City away I think we'd have a new national joke on our hands.
 
It would be pointless. He would probably be played as part of some ridiculous midfield two then promptly annihilated when it failed yet again.

Could do a job np as an out and out defensive midfielder, that won't ever happen though.
 
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