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Not ONLY the players.

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rowley2

Winger
A disgusting surrender by too many again in the last test.

These players will get much dog's abuse when they eventually return to England, most of it deserved.

Honourable exceptions begin with Stuart Broard who was for me the second best bowler in the series. Harris, a superb bowler again all series, has slightly better figures, but he has been bowling after Johnson, not leading the attack himself and then bowling after Tremlett or Bresnan. Ben Stokes also can hold his head up high, he could not have been expected to do more. Top of the batting averages, only centurion, best strike rate with the bat. Fifteen wickets at an average under his batting average, a good old measure of an all rounder's performance. No doubt England will now flog him to death and have the same pernicious effect they seem to have on so many players that play their way into this England environment.

Which raises the subject of the colossal amount of people employed by England at various levels, who will probably escape censure following this humiliating winter.

What are they doing to players when they get hold of them? Players who, through constant high performance at their counties, get selected and are then apparently required to learn at the feet of these masters how to play cricket? The list is too long, and goes back too long.

As far back as Jimmy Anderson about six or seven years ago. Out of the England team and cricket altogether for a while as he struggled with a stress fracture caused by the England set up insisting he change his action in case he suffered ..............a stress fracture! Only by returning to his own "inadequate" action did he become the bowler that took so many wickets. But Anderson had the strength of character to stand up to this battalion of wage collecting automatons and do his own thing, many will not. It will be interesting to see how Tymal Mills bowls in the coming summer . I'd bet he bowls a bit slower.

How much damage have this lot done to Steven Finn? Will he recover, and does HE have the internal nous to tell them where to go? Stuart Meaker and others, including Liam Plunket, who came back to Durham significantly reduced as a bowler after he had been with England, (although he hardly helped himself!), have suffered a decline after contact with this all knowing, all seeing cabal of coaches. In the summer I heard one of them on the radio saying that "we need to make Steven (Finn's) action more repeatable" Unbelievable. They have ruined him by messing about with his run up, and now they are wanting to change an action of about fourteen years, rather then just letting him do what HE feels is right.

And all these batting "coaches". Twenty five innings now and not one score above 400. This is not a blip. Good established batsmen are in their shells against good accurate bowling, not daring to play their own game at times. What effect will they be having on young players going on Lions tours, or just getting into the England team? Stokes might be fine in this regard, I certainly hope so, he seems to be a strong character, but many might not be.

The players and head coach get the biggest rewards and so they will get the most stick. Fair enough, they have been largely appalling, showing a distinct lack of application at times.

But there are many whose names will never be mentioned who are are at best doing no good at all, and more likely causing lasting harm to young players for the future. They will keep their heads down, collect their cash, trot out the right cliches and look after themselves. England spend millions on the England set up, and it is a set up that would not have allowed Mitchel Johnson to sort himself out. QED.
 

A disgusting surrender by too many again in the last test.

These players will get much dog's abuse when they eventually return to England, most of it deserved.

Honourable exceptions begin with Stuart Broard who was for me the second best bowler in the series. Harris, a superb bowler again all series, has slightly better figures, but he has been bowling after Johnson, not leading the attack himself and then bowling after Tremlett or Bresnan. Ben Stokes also can hold his head up high, he could not have been expected to do more. Top of the batting averages, only centurion, best strike rate with the bat. Fifteen wickets at an average under his batting average, a good old measure of an all rounder's performance. No doubt England will now flog him to death and have the same pernicious effect they seem to have on so many players that play their way into this England environment.

Which raises the subject of the colossal amount of people employed by England at various levels, who will probably escape censure following this humiliating winter.

What are they doing to players when they get hold of them? Players who, through constant high performance at their counties, get selected and are then apparently required to learn at the feet of these masters how to play cricket? The list is too long, and goes back too long.

As far back as Jimmy Anderson about six or seven years ago. Out of the England team and cricket altogether for a while as he struggled with a stress fracture caused by the England set up insisting he change his action in case he suffered ..............a stress fracture! Only by returning to his own "inadequate" action did he become the bowler that took so many wickets. But Anderson had the strength of character to stand up to this battalion of wage collecting automatons and do his own thing, many will not. It will be interesting to see how Tymal Mills bowls in the coming summer . I'd bet he bowls a bit slower.

How much damage have this lot done to Steven Finn? Will he recover, and does HE have the internal nous to tell them where to go? Stuart Meaker and others, including Liam Plunket, who came back to Durham significantly reduced as a bowler after he had been with England, (although he hardly helped himself!), have suffered a decline after contact with this all knowing, all seeing cabal of coaches. In the summer I heard one of them on the radio saying that "we need to make Steven (Finn's) action more repeatable" Unbelievable. They have ruined him by messing about with his run up, and now they are wanting to change an action of about fourteen years, rather then just letting him do what HE feels is right.

And all these batting "coaches". Twenty five innings now and not one score above 400. This is not a blip. Good established batsmen are in their shells against good accurate bowling, not daring to play their own game at times. What effect will they be having on young players going on Lions tours, or just getting into the England team? Stokes might be fine in this regard, I certainly hope so, he seems to be a strong character, but many might not be.

The players and head coach get the biggest rewards and so they will get the most stick. Fair enough, they have been largely appalling, showing a distinct lack of application at times.

But there are many whose names will never be mentioned who are are at best doing no good at all, and more likely causing lasting harm to young players for the future. They will keep their heads down, collect their cash, trot out the right cliches and look after themselves. England spend millions on the England set up, and it is a set up that would not have allowed Mitchel Johnson to sort himself out. QED.


Well said especially about coaches messing with bowlers natural ability
 
Some points I agree with, not sure about who changed Finn's run up or the relevance of bowling actions has on a team not scoring 400 (top 1st innings score was less than 300!). He certainly needed to change something after he kept kicking the stumps over, but I don't know if he's doing that since a change or always done it.

A couple of commentators mentioned that the support staff were all on the pitch at the oval but none of them showed up on the pitch today (I didn't watch but I assume at least Flower was there) which wouldn't impress me if I was in the squad.

In Agnew's article on the bbc ( ) he asked Cook if they would seek the opinions of people outside the team environment and he said no, I don't think that's good for the future.
 
Some points I agree with, not sure about who changed Finn's run up or the relevance of bowling actions has on a team not scoring 400 (top 1st innings score was less than 300!). He certainly needed to change something after he kept kicking the stumps over, but I don't know if he's doing that since a change or always done it.
I'm not saying the bowling tampering is connected to the batting troubles. Just that various coaches are affecting batting AND bowling.

I think it is accepted that England instigated the Finn run up change, against the wishes of his county and up to a point, the player. The kicking over of the stumps was an over stated problem, made worse by some bad captaincy. A better , stronger captain would have told the playernot to worry too much and concentrate on bowling fast.

Good spot that Agnew article, and the point you make is spot on. They are insular and numerous, they will keep it to themselves thank you very much.
A couple of commentators mentioned that the support staff were all on the pitch at the oval but none of them showed up on the pitch today (I didn't watch but I assume at least Flower was there) which wouldn't impress me if I was in the squad.

In Agnew's article on the bbc ( ) he asked Cook if they would seek the opinions of people outside the team environment and he said no, I don't think that's good for the future.
 
Saker fucked with Finn's run up and action, and to cap it off Richard Johnson at Middlesex got him trying to bowl out swinger's (why???). How to ruin a good fastbowler.
 
The only man who can sort Steven Finn out is Steven Finn.
 
The only man who can sort Steven Finn out is Steven Finn.

Bowls how England coaches tell him to = liability.

Defies England coaches and goes back to bowling how he used to = doesn't get picked as Chef thinks he's too unpredictable to set a field for.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
Bowls how England coaches tell him to = liability.

Defies England coaches and goes back to bowling how he used to = doesn't get picked as Chef thinks he's too unpredictable to set a field for.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I think youll find a bowler has a big say on how the field is set as after all it is he who is trying to take a wicket.
 
Great post by the OP. I just dont believe that the Aussies are a great team. They have thrashed a very sorry looking England team who now have a load of problems to sort out. This IMHO and in hindsight probably goes back to last winter in NZ where we couldnt put away a half decent NZ team, nearly lost and then struggled with them again. A good management team knows when to ring the changes but they never did, going with the same players over and over until, probably, they have burnt themselves out. The Aussie side last summer was shite and we never got out of first gear to beat them. They hadnt won in 9 tests matches before this Ashes which shows you how poor they were and had been whitewashed by India.

People are now waxing lyrical about Johnson but FFS if the England batsmen cant handle someone bowling 90mph then its just as well they werent around when Akhtar and Akram were fizzing it about. Johnson has been a f***ing laughing stock and now looks a world beater. I'm sure that he will be shown the way home against SA.

Someone has to carry the can for this and if Cook doesnt get peddled as captain then that IMHO will turn out to be a big mistake. England cant, after this, just shrug their shoulders and not do anything because that would be to invite yet anther thrashing. They have to do something and someone has to carry the can for this utter humiliation. Given the standard of the opposition this has to go down as perhaps one of the worst England touring teams and displays in test history.

I hope that they stick with Borthwick (Durham will suffer but hey ho - think of the lad) but already people are writing him off after one f***ing test.
 
Some points I agree with, not sure about who changed Finn's run up or the relevance of bowling actions has on a team not scoring 400 (top 1st innings score was less than 300!). He certainly needed to change something after he kept kicking the stumps over, but I don't know if he's doing that since a change or always done it.

A couple of commentators mentioned that the support staff were all on the pitch at the oval but none of them showed up on the pitch today (I didn't watch but I assume at least Flower was there) which wouldn't impress me if I was in the squad.

In Agnew's article on the bbc ( ) he asked Cook if they would seek the opinions of people outside the team environment and he said no, I don't think that's good for the future.

I find Agnew's slant on wanting them to take his and other media's advice a strange one!! @You can't have every Tom, Dick and Harry telling you how to run the side.
 
The selectors surely have to take a large degree of responsibilty for this series shambles. It consisted of Miller( now retired),Whitaker, Flower and Cook. Miller and Whitaker must presumably have been the ones who watched Rankin,Tremlett and Finn on the county circuit and recommended their selection. Whitaker is now Chairman of selectors and theirs obviously one vacancy. Given the shambles that's gone before, the new appointment is our only hope.
 
Saker fucked with Finn's run up and action, and to cap it off Richard Johnson at Middlesex got him trying to bowl out swinger's (why???). How to ruin a good fastbowler.


tbf it was necessary, otherwise he would just bowl no balls every over. bit worried the same will happen to stokes after his bail dislodging... should be a bit easier though for stokes - you wouldn't think bowling a tiny little bit wider of the stumps would cause so much hassle...
 
I find Agnew's slant on wanting them to take his and other media's advice a strange one!! @You can't have every Tom, Dick and Harry telling you how to run the side.
No, but at the same time you can't dismiss the opinion of everyone outside the immediate group. Hopefully Cook was just being overly defensive and people will seek advice in a more private forum.
 
tbf it was necessary, otherwise he would just bowl no balls every over. bit worried the same will happen to stokes after his bail dislodging... should be a bit easier though for stokes - you wouldn't think bowling a tiny little bit wider of the stumps would cause so much hassle...

It didn't work though - he still hit the stumps and the shorter run up cost him a bit of pace. Any idea why he couldn't simply bowl with the same action from wide of the stumps?
 
It didn't work though - he still hit the stumps and the shorter run up cost him a bit of pace. Any idea why he couldn't simply bowl with the same action from wide of the stumps?

dunno, i didn't really follow finn all that much, never really rated him that highly..
 
tbf it was necessary, otherwise he would just bowl no balls every over. bit worried the same will happen to stokes after his bail dislodging... should be a bit easier though for stokes - you wouldn't think bowling a tiny little bit wider of the stumps would cause so much hassle...

Finn didn't hit the stumps all that often though. It was a problem, but a slight one, and only ever once cost a wicket.

The captain should have been stronger in this and told the bowler to bowl fast and let him worry about the no balls. The batsmen might be put of as well as the bowler by the prospect of course, if they needed another reason to leave a good fast bowler alone.

The issue of Finn and Stokes doing this, and no balling , sheds light on the low level of the so called excellent England coaching set up. The tremendous George Dobell, at cricinfo has reported in wonderment several times this winter that in the nets, bowlers are not called for no balls and are running past only one stump to bowl. It is an amatuer mistake. Complacency abounds in that camp, very good young players are going to be ruined if it is not changed.
 
Finn didn't hit the stumps all that often though. It was a problem, but a slight one, and only ever once cost a wicket.

The captain should have been stronger in this and told the bowler to bowl fast and let him worry about the no balls. The batsmen might be put of as well as the bowler by the prospect of course, if they needed another reason to leave a good fast bowler alone.

The issue of Finn and Stokes doing this, and no balling , sheds light on the low level of the so called excellent England coaching set up. The tremendous George Dobell, at cricinfo has reported in wonderment several times this winter that in the nets, bowlers are not called for no balls and are running past only one stump to bowl. It is an amatuer mistake. Complacency abounds in that camp, very good young players are going to be ruined if it is not changed.
neither did england in the summer, think at the start of the 5th test england had hit the stumps around 150 times in just under 2500 balls
 
COOK
ROBSON
BELL
ROOT B
TAYLOR
BALLANCE
STOKES B
PRIOR
BROAD B
OVERTON/MILLS B
FINN B
 
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