Welbeck for Henderson


Status
Not open for further replies.
He skipped past Evra at Old Trafford last season.

Great run and cross vs Wigan for Jones to equalise


Passing against Blackburn earlier this season was brilliant

His quick, short, one touch passes are something we havent had in midfield for years and because of this many fans dont appreciate them. These quick passes create so much more space for our other players and keep the game flowing.



Ah right, so world cup is the same as league games. :lol::oops:

And you are taking the papers word as fact now eh? I'll assure you, whatever Ferguson rated him at 4 weeks ago will be pretty much the same as he is rated at by Ferguson now.

Two things, both of which were last season, and I specifically mentioned earlier how I had been dissapointed with him, THIS season, and how THIS season, I hadn't seen the things that make him so supposedly impressive and worth £20 million or what have you.

His passing at Blackburn was good for the first half, not so much the second I'd say, where we struggled. You would expect a hungry and clever cm to run a game against ten men, no?

The quick, one touch passing is certainly an asset, and it fits in with our now enjoyable style of short, tidy passing, but he's not the only one in the side to do this, nor is he the only young cm in the premier league to do this. It doesn't make him worth an awful lot of money or the next anyone. It's a strength, an asset, but it's simply a positive in the good qualities column, which is about equal to negatives in the weaknesses column. All adds up to him being an alright cm, with plenty time to improve and get better, which i hope he does. It doesn't mean he's more or less a year away from being Paul Scholes in his prime, or anything approaching that, though.
 
Last edited:
You compared price fluctuations on the back of Premiership games to those of world cup games... which is akin to comparing Kevin Kilbane to Lionel Messi.

messi has a track record which will keep his value high even if he has a crap season let alone 4 games same with rooney, kilbane and henderson have no track record of any worth to hold up any value....

its like talking to children sometimes on here :roll:
 
You compared price fluctuations on the back of Premiership games to those of world cup games... which is akin to comparing Kevin Kilbane to Lionel Messi.

he is a winner marra :lol:

messi has a track record which will keep his value high even if he has a crap season let alone 4 games same with rooney, kilbane and henderson have no track record of any worth to hold up any value....

its like talking to children sometimes on here :roll:

values dont go up and down on a daily basis you nipple :lol:
 
Apart from his moment of brilliance at Wigan and his decent pass to Gyan at Chelsea, what has he actually done?:confused:

Over the last couple of seasons he has impressed Brucie, Fergie, Mancini, Chelsea and the England manager. He has just turned twenty years old and is an established Premiership player.

I would say thats quite a lot.
 
Examples? Don't just say "good passing"-stand out examples of when he's done it, the sort that make it evident that he is a real talent. I can name stand out moments for Cattermole, even, so if Jordan is so impressive then there must be a few you can recall. I was defending Gyan before his first start on here when the majority were saying he was shit, and I was able to give moments when he'd done something impressive without too much difficulty, beyond just scoring. If you can't then I suggest you haven't been watching him too much, in which case your opinion is hardly that worthy, or on the other hand there just aren't that many moments.

And there's nothing wrong with that, if that is the case. He's an alright cm, he does a job, that's fine. It's this notion that he's a prodigy that I don't get and that I'm somehow a bad person/footballing dunce if I don't see this.

He's 20 years old. Looking decent in a midtable Premier League side is good enough at that age. His vision, range of passing and general lack of weaknesses is why big clubs and England are interested. Consistency and decision making will improve with experience.
 
messi has a track record which will keep his value high even if he has a crap season let alone 4 games same with rooney, kilbane and henderson have no track record of any worth to hold up any value....

P.S. That is combining two arguments you dildo. You were still wrong to suggest that after 1 poor game and a few mediocre games that Henderson price will have fallen!
 
He's 20 years old. Looking decent in a midtable Premier League side is good enough at that age. His vision, range of passing and general lack of weaknesses is why big clubs and England are interested. Consistency and decision making will improve with experience.

No, I agree entirely. As it is, he's alright. I've never said any different, and he has the talent to be quite good, or he might turn out to be average, who knows? But there’s enough there to suggest that he isn’t necessarily class in the making either. What he is, is a cm in the premier league, and so I have the right to compare him with other cm’s in the premier league, and praise him when he’s good, and criticise him when he’s bad, on the basis of that. Within that criteria, he's been average-which means some good, some bad. No more, no less.

But an awful lot of people here will gan mental if you dare criticise the local boy and not state how wonderful he is, that’s my problem.
 
Last edited:
No, I agree entirely. As it is, he's alright. I've never said any different, and he has the talent to be quite good, or he might turn out to be average, who knows? But there’s enough there to suggest that he isn’t necessarily class in the making either. What he is, is a cm in the premier league, and so I have the right to compare him with other cm’s in the premier league, and praise him when he’s good, and criticise him when he’s bad, on the basis of that.

But an awful lot of people here will gan mental if you dare criticise the local boy and not state how wonderful he is, that’s my problem.

What is there to suggest he isn't class in the making? He will likely improve significantly over the next few years. The vast majority of players who are established first teamers by the age of 19 in top divisions all around the world do. Of course, no one can tell just how much he will improve. He could end up the next Huddlestone. He could end up the next Khedira. He could end up the next Schweinsteiger. How is this scenario not exciting?

You don't have to be the next Paul Scholes to command a £20M transfer fee at Hendersons age. Even if he only improves a little, he'll be a good young player with resale value 3 years down the line, and could easily command a £10-15M fee. If you take wages into consideration, it's less of a financial risk for a club like Man Utd to buy Henderson at £20M, than buying an established 28-29 year old big name for £10M.
 
Last edited:
I would want to see a lot more from Welbeck before deciding he is worth losing Henderson to sign. Welbeck has been class in his last 2 games, but thats all it is, 2 games, he might go on and not impress in his next 5. Anything like this should only, if at all, be considered at the end of the season. TBH if we think Welbeck is worth losing Henderson over, I dont think there is any chance united would let him go

When he's played in his proper position (up front) he's been awesome
 
What is there to suggest he isn't class in the making? He will likely improve significantly over the next few years. The vast majority of players who are established first teamers by the age of 19 in top divisions all around the world do. Of course, no one can tell just how much he will improve. He could end up the next Huddlestone. He could end up the next Khedira. He could end up the next Schweinsteiger. How is this scenario not exciting?

You don't have to be the next Paul Scholes to command a £20M transfer fee at Hendersons age. Even if he only improves a little, he'll be a good young player with resale value 3 years down the line, and could easily command a £10-15M fee. If you take wages into consideration, it's less of a financial risk for a club like Man Utd to buy Henderson at £20M, than buying an established 28-29 year old big name for £10M.

I didn't say that. I said he isn't necessarily class in the making. I hope he is, he has talent and potential for sure. But what he is just now is an average cm, but at the age of 20 that's pretty good like. If he builds on that, that will be very impressive, but there has been little this season to suggest that he is doing that just now, which is why it drives me mad people laud his abilities as though they were consistent and permanent. If they were then our midfield would be much stronger than it currently is.

In regards to the improvement bit, indeed, noone can. So for now I'll look forward to when he does, but it might not happen, and so I will get excited when there is more evidence of the former rather than the later. When he can control a game I'll be dead pleased, but he has looked some way of that just now so I can't raise my estimation of him beyond average just now.
 
Tin hat on and ready to be slaughtered, but henderson is a decent player. Not the world beater some on here think. I never quite get the hype when he is mentioned, he very rarely influences the game, his corners and free kicks are usually shit, most of his passes are easy option 5 yard sideways and he doesnt score goals. In his defence, he is young and may improve but thats not guaranteed.

Anyway back to the original question , would you swap him for welbeck , that would depend on how much wonga feguson would want as part of the deal. Straight swap, Yes i would be very happy.
 
I didn't say that. I said he isn't necessarily class in the making. I hope he is, he has talent and potential for sure. But what he is just now is an average cm, but at the age of 20 that's pretty good like. If he builds on that, that will be very impressive, but there has been little this season to suggest that he is doing that just now, which is why it drives me mad people laud his abilities as though they were consistent and permanent. If they were then our midfield would be much stronger than it currently is.

In regards to the improvement bit, indeed, noone can. So for now I'll look forward to when he does, but it might not happen, and so I will get excited when there is more evidence of the former rather than the later. When he can control a game I'll be dead pleased, but he has looked some way of that just now so I can't raise my estimation of him beyond average just now.

You very rarely see young promising players improving little by little month by month over many years. What usually happens is they improve certain aspects of their game or physique, while their actual performances are average, inconsistent or even getting worse. Then suddenly, when all pieces fall together and they are at the right place at the right time, at the right position with the right teammates under the right manager, they start to perform on a different level.

What was Schweinsteiger up to between WC 2006 and last season? Van Gaal was appointed, moved him from the wings to the DM position of a 4-2-3-1, and there was suddenly one of the best midfielders in the world.

What was Khedira up to between Stuttgart's league title some years back and WC 2010? Not much, until Löw decided to put his trust in him as the definite replacement for Torsten Frings.

Cristiano Ronaldo produced 5 goals in 42 appearances for Manchester United at Hendersons age.

The list could obviously go on and on. Henderson has plenty of years still to reach that point. He doesn't even have a position yet. As long as he manages to keep playing at a high level over the next couple of years, high hopes can be held for him, and he shouldn't be written off even if he doesn't do anything noteworthy for the rest of the season.

As for the point made about not having seen him control a game. Did you see Ronaldo dominate a game in the above mentioned season? Is it even Henderson's role to control a game? Considering he doesn't even a have a definite position yet, and Bruce keeps changing formation every other game... If he improves his strength and tackling for example, he could be a Khedira type of box-to-box midfielder - and you've never seen Khedira control a game on his own. Yet he's first choice for Real Madrid nowadays.
 
Last edited:
Right, Bruce wants Welbeck, Fergie has reportedly asked to be kept updated on Hendo. Could a swap deal be on the cards? Would you be happy with a swap?

To be honest, I think Henderson is a little overrated. His set pieces are usually poor, he doesn't score many, he can be sloppy at times. I think he could be replaced for less than it'd cost to buy another Welbeck. I'd be happy to take a swap.

Welbeck has had two good games for us, Henderson has been our most consistent midfielder since the start of last season. This thread would make me tear my hair out if I had any left to tear out. :confused:
 
You very rarely see young promising players improving little by little month by month over many years. What usually happens is they improve certain aspects of their game or physique, while their actual performances are average, inconsistent or even getting worse. Then suddenly, when all pieces fall together and they are at the right place at the right time, at the right position with the right teammates under the right manager, they start to perform on a different level.

What was Schweinsteiger up to between WC 2006 and last season? Van Gaal was appointed, moved him from the wings to the DM position of a 4-2-3-1, and there was suddenly one of the best midfielders in the world.

What was Khedira up to between Stuttgart's league title some years back and WC 2010? Not much, until Löw decided to put his trust in him as the definite replacement for Torsten Frings.

Cristiano Ronaldo produced 5 goals in 42 appearances for Manchester United at Hendersons age.

The list could obviously go on and on. Henderson has plenty of years still to reach that point. He doesn't even have a position yet. As long as he manages to keep playing at a high level over the next couple of years, high hopes can be held for him, and he shouldn't be written off even if he doesn't do anything noteworthy for the rest of the season.

As for the point made about not having seen him control a game. Did you see Ronaldo dominate a game in the above mentioned season? Is it even Henderson's role to control a game? Considering he doesn't even a have a definite position yet, and Bruce keeps changing formation every other game... If he improves his strength and tackling for example, he could be a Khedira type of box-to-box midfielder - and you've never seen Khedira control a game on his own. Yet he's first choice for Real Madrid nowadays.

All fair academic points, and well reasoned, but there’s little to hold on to there apart from Henderson might be really good one day, if certain things happen.
I would never disagree with that. There is as much to suggest he won’t as that he will though, which is why I haven’t said that Henderson will be good, or bad, or great or crap. I’ve said there isn’t enough to tell yet. I hope he's great, but my optimism won't make it so.

You could say what you’ve done about a lot of young players. Welbeck could be the best striker ever, if a lot of things happen. Nile Ranger could. And so on.

So I’m happy to recognise Henderson has talent, and is a twenty year old central midfielder who is having an average season in the premier league just now. Saying anything beyond that for now is not objective though.
 
All fair academic points, and well reasoned, but there’s little to hold on to there apart from Henderson might be really good one day, if certain things happen.
I would never disagree with that. There is as much to suggest he won’t as that he will though, which is why I haven’t said that Henderson will be good, or bad, or great or crap. I’ve said there isn’t enough to tell yet. I hope he's great, but my optimism won't make it so.

You could say what you’ve done about a lot of young players. Welbeck could be the best striker ever, if a lot of things happen. Nile Ranger could. And so on.

So I’m happy to recognise Henderson has talent, and is a twenty year old central midfielder who is having an average season in the premier league just now. Saying anything beyond that for now is not objective though.

But you have yet to clarify what there is to suggest that he won't.

I would have thought it's fairly obvious that more factors are pointing in Henderson's favour than against it.

He's a 20 year old putting in, on average, decent performances in the Premier League over a significant period of time.

He's played a vital role in England qualifying for the U21 Euro Championship.

He's made his debut for the senior national team, and has attracted confirmed interest from Manchester United and possibly other big teams. This is pretty significant, because the most vital aspect of scouting is not to judge wheter a player has performed well or not. Most fans and even some pundits can do that. Rather, it's to judge whether he will or won't. Will he or won't he develop? Will he or won't he adapt? That's a scouts job, and teams like Manchester United have some of the best.

He has a couple uncommon attributes that makes him stand out, such as his vision, and doesn't have any of the common weaknesses that can prevent a player from making it at a high level, such as poor pace or lack of physique.

Now try make a similar list for Welbeck. Fair enough, you probably could. Welbeck, like Henderson, has good potential. Imagine doing the same for Khedira 3 years ago. It's pretty close beteween him, Henderson and Welbeck. Schweinsteiger and Ronaldo? They had even more pointing in their favour as they were already first team regulars for big clubs and their national teams at Hendersons age. They also ended up as some of the best players in the world. Which no one really expects Henderson to.

Now try Nile Ranger. Now try the other Premier League players of similar age that you compared Henderson to earlier. Many of them don't have as much going for them, so it's likely they won't end up as good as Henderson. Some of them might have even more going for them, and then it's likely they will end up even better than Henderson. But you can never be sure. A few of the most promising ones might end up worse than Henderson, while a few of the more unknown ones might turn out to become better players in the future.

And you can't be sure that either Chelsea or Manchester United will win the league this season. But that doesn't mean their fans shouldn't be excited at the prospect of winning it. It's all about probability. Henderson will probably become a good player at this level in the future. And that's what people are excited about.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top