Vaux site

Bakerlooline

Midfield

a bit of landscaping is always nice but the centre needs jobs and commerce......
“A bit of landscaping” hardly covers the scope of this project, that‘s a very unfair comment. There are several cafes/restaurants earmarked for specific sites within the ”landscaping” and of course the effective rebuild of the Gill Bridge and the new pedestrian crossing which makes for exceptional connectivity. The jobs are coming to the south and south west sections of the site, but you already know that.
 


“A bit of landscaping” hardly covers the scope of this project, that‘s a very unfair comment. There are several cafes/restaurants earmarked for specific sites within the ”landscaping” and of course the effective rebuild of the Gill Bridge and the new pedestrian crossing which makes for exceptional connectivity. The jobs are coming to the south and south west sections of the site, but you already know that.
I guess you’ve got to call a spade a spade. To create parks and path you’ve got to landscape an area that’s a fact. My point was the central area needs jobs and commerce. What you see in other places is the use of existing spaces and maximised into commercial opportunities e.g. railway arches under bridges turned into retail units etc.
As lovely as the deindustrialised riverside now is, it’s going to be a place to have a nice stroll, maybe a picnic. The wooded area between the wearmouth bridge to deptford will be largely unchanged and definitely uninviting. The addition of a few cafes will not achieve the return of jobs that the land area needs. I guess an analogy would be, if you put a few cafes in herrington park would you call it a hub for employment?
I realise this will attract the usual defeatist comments “we’re only lowly Sunderland and it won’t be viable.....blah blah blah”
I just fail to see the return on invest in parks when the area needs jobs
 

Meathead

Central Defender
Hell on if they don’t do anything with the land, hell on if when they do. I for one welcome it. We’re already seeing jobs created and if this is anything to go by, we have new public spaces and housing on the way too. They’re literally covering every possible base other than leaving the land derelict and we’ve still got knackers whinging :lol:
 

Osklen

Central Defender
I guess you’ve got to call a spade a spade. To create parks and path you’ve got to landscape an area that’s a fact. My point was the central area needs jobs and commerce. What you see in other places is the use of existing spaces and maximised into commercial opportunities e.g. railway arches under bridges turned into retail units etc.
As lovely as the deindustrialised riverside now is, it’s going to be a place to have a nice stroll, maybe a picnic. The wooded area between the wearmouth bridge to deptford will be largely unchanged and definitely uninviting. The addition of a few cafes will not achieve the return of jobs that the land area needs. I guess an analogy would be, if you put a few cafes in herrington park would you call it a hub for employment?
I realise this will attract the usual defeatist comments “we’re only lowly Sunderland and it won’t be viable.....blah blah blah”
I just fail to see the return on invest in parks when the area needs jobs
haven’t they planned to deliver 1,000,000sq ft of office accommodation? Ok it’s not in the park itself but it does form part of the wider development. Also not all areas need to be developed there is merit in keeping green spaces - the wylam brewery offer in exhibition park works quite well and you could deliver something similar.
 

bobster999

Central Defender
“A bit of landscaping” hardly covers the scope of this project, that‘s a very unfair comment. There are several cafes/restaurants earmarked for specific sites within the ”landscaping” and of course the effective rebuild of the Gill Bridge and the new pedestrian crossing which makes for exceptional connectivity. The jobs are coming to the south and south west sections of the site, but you already know that.

And the other bridges due to be built (not across the river though)
 
haven’t they planned to deliver 1,000,000sq ft of office accommodation? Ok it’s not in the park itself but it does form part of the wider development. Also not all areas need to be developed there is merit in keeping green spaces - the wylam brewery offer in exhibition park works quite well and you could deliver something similar.
well yes however 200,000sp ft of that is taken by the replacement civic centre. The key word there is replacement of existing offices. Realistically for new accommodation they’ve completed the beam and the two new legal and general buildings planned.....so three buildings amounts to
a “business district”? The rest is housing or parks. It doesn’t really amount to unbounded opportunity to bring jobs into the centre.....that it desperately needs.

As for merits with greenery......herrington park is big enough, save the centre for employment
 
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42

Winger
well yes however 200,000sp ft of that is taken by the replacement civic centre. The key word there is replacement of existing offices. Realistically for new accommodation they’ve completed the beam and the two new legal and general buildings planned.....so three buildings amounts to
a “business district”. The rest is housing or parks. It doesn’t really amount to unbounded opportunity to bring jobs into the centre.....that it desperately needs
You've missed off the relocation of the eye infirmary which is extra jobs relocating to city centre
 

Osklen

Central Defender
well yes however 200,000sp ft of that is taken by the replacement civic centre. The key word there is replacement of existing offices. Realistically for new accommodation they’ve completed the beam and the two new legal and general buildings planned.....so three buildings amounts to
a “business district”? The rest is housing or parks. It doesn’t really amount to unbounded opportunity to bring jobs into the centre.....that it desperately needs.

As for merits with greenery......herrington park is big enough, save the centre for employment
yes but you wouldn’t build all 1,000,000sq ft of new office development until you have businesses signed up. In an ideal world they would be new business but we have to be realistic to think some will be displaced within the city or region, but that’s not a bad thing ie businesses moving from doxford into the city centre. They will build the office buildings out in phases so as to not bring too much space in one go as it would be counter intuitive and would drive down rents and ultimately viability.

you still need green space even in built up areas particularly when building housing, even for events.
 
yes but you wouldn’t build all 1,000,000sq ft of new office development until you have businesses signed up. In an ideal world they would be new business but we have to be realistic to think some will be displaced within the city or region, but that’s not a bad thing ie businesses moving from doxford into the city centre. They will build the office buildings out in phases so as to not bring too much space in one go as it would be counter intuitive and would drive down rents and ultimately viability.

you still need green space even in built up areas particularly when building housing, even for events.
but you can’t sign businesses up if you haven’t got the infrastructure to offer them.
Ocado would simply not be in the city without the beam building, they may have went to somewhere with ample accommodation.....like Newcastle.
At some point Sunderland needs to speculate on buildings and follow it up by attracting tenants......exactly what’s they’ve done with Ocado and the other occupants of the beam
 

Meathead

Central Defender
As far as UK city’s go, I’m sure I read previously that we had one of the highest ratios of green space to built up areas. If that is the case, then surely it’s not only something to be proud of but also something to use to our advantage when trying to attract businesses looking to give their employees a better quality of life to the city?
 

Osklen

Central Defender
but you can’t sign businesses up if you haven’t got the infrastructure to offer them.
Ocado would simply not be in the city without the beam building, they may have went to somewhere with ample accommodation.....like Newcastle.
At some point Sunderland needs to speculate on buildings and follow it up by attracting tenants......exactly what’s they’ve done with Ocado and the other occupants of the beam
I agree but that is what L&G are doing isnt it ie provide spec office buildings?

presumably there is space still to go at int he Beam?

 
I agree but that is what L&G are doing isnt it ie provide spec office buildings?

presumably there is space still to go at int he Beam?

I agree it’s a step in the right direction and hopefully they can market the place well and grow its potential ..it’s going to be a great place for business
 

Osklen

Central Defender
I agree it’s a step in the right direction and hopefully they can market the place well and grow its potential ..it’s going to be a great place for business
its frustrating that is taking so long but sadly construction does especially outside the core cities take years. Sunderland not only has to build the buildings (the relatively easy bit) it also needs to convince business to relocate to Sunderland (the very hard part) which is no easy thing. Larger lettings are likely to be being explored a couple of years in advance of existing leases expiring so there is often time. Developers much prefer pre-let’s rather than spec development as it’s much more lucrative and developed dislike risk.
 

Bakerlooline

Midfield
My point was the central area needs jobs and commerce.
I don't disagree, but as I've said there are plans for cafes within the park area and the extra connectivity brings extra footfall.

The wooded area between the wearmouth bridge to deptford will be largely unchanged and definitely uninviting.
That's just plain wrong, it is all being developed.

The addition of a few cafes will not achieve the return of jobs that the land area needs. I guess an analogy would be, if you put a few cafes in herrington park would you call it a hub for employment?
It would be a pretty poor analogy as Herrington Park doesn't have a bloody great office block, a City Hall and two additional office developments (which are at least the same size as the Beam) plus retail and leisure units, bars and restaurants at ground level, a new 4 star hotel under construction and the HQ of the UK's biggest independent travel agent immediately adjacent to it. You claim to "just want the best for the city" yet you moan about everything that is suggested, it's not about "defeatist attitudes" it's about the fact that there has to be some practicality in the development of sites like Vaux. It's also worth remembering that this is all just on the back of one investor, more are likely to be looking and thinking "what's going on in Sunderland?" because believe me, the construction industry and wider industry in general certainly is doing that at the moment.
I guess this is my point........these aren’t new jobs.........just shuffling existing jobs and passing it off as progress
Yes, but they are being shuffled to a much more appropriate location. City Hall is being moved and will massively increase footfall in the city centre at lunchtimes - humans are lazy. A lass sat at her desk in the civic centre isn't likely, on a rainy Tuesday in February, to think "hhhmmm I think I'll walk to Marks & Spencer and get a nice prawn sandwich" but from the new location the same lass is much more likely to do exactly that. WRT the Eye Infirmary, it's current location means those that travel from as far afield as Teesside, County Durham and darkest Northumberland to use the facility don't do anything else but visit the infirmary then sod off. From the new location they are much more likely to think "well we've parked up now, shall we go do a bit shopping? or grab a coffee or a bite to eat" plus the Dr's and Nurses employed there will also be on the lookout for a prawn sandwich (well the Dr's can afford them anyway). Plus the sale of the land of the existing site of the Eye Infirmary is going to be a massive earner for the city, that is prime housing land and will go for a very tidy sum indeed, its a huge site, way bigger than the infirmary has ever needed. Bigger picture.
 
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Howton3r

Goalkeeper
I don't disagree, but as I've said there are plans for cafes within the park area and the extra connectivity brings extra footfall.


That's just plain wrong, it is all being developed.


It would be a pretty poor analogy as Herrington Park doesn't have a bloody great office block, a City Hall and two additional office developments (which are at least the same size as the Beam) plus retail and leisure units, bars and restaurants at ground level, a new 4 star hotel under construction and the HQ of the UK's biggest independent travel agent immediately adjacent to it. You claim to "just want the best for the city" yet you moan about everything that is suggested, it's not about "defeatist attitudes" it's about the fact that there has to be some practicality in the development of sites like Vaux. It's also worth remembering that this is all just on the back of one investor, more are likely to be looking and thinking "what's going on in Sunderland?" because believe me, the construction industry and wider industry in general certainly is doing that at the moment.

Yes, but they are being shuffled to a much more appropriate location. City Hall is being moved and will massively increase footfall in the city centre at lunchtimes - humans are lazy. A lass sat at her desk in the civic centre isn't likely, on a rainy Tuesday in February, to think "hhhmmm I think I'll walk to Marks & Spencer and get a nice prawn sandwich" but from the new location the same lass is much more likely to do exactly that. WRT the Eye Infirmary, it's current location means those that travel from as far afield as Teesside, County Durham and darkest Northumberland to use the facility don't do anything else but visit the infirmary then sod off. From the new location they are much more likely to think "well we've parked up now, shall we go do a bit shopping? or grab a coffee or a bite to eat" plus the Dr's and Nurses employed there will also be on the lookout for a prawn sandwich (well the Dr's can afford them anyway). Plus the sale of the land of the existing site of the Eye Infirmary is going to be a massive earner for the city, that is prime housing land and will go for a very tidy sum indeed, its a huge site, way bigger than the infirmary has ever needed. Bigger picture.
STOP BEING SO SENSIBLE.
VAUX IS A SHAMBLES.
 
its frustrating that is taking so long but sadly construction does especially outside the core cities take years. Sunderland not only has to build the buildings (the relatively easy bit) it also needs to convince business to relocate to Sunderland (the very hard part) which is no easy thing. Larger lettings are likely to be being explored a couple of years in advance of existing leases expiring so there is often time. Developers much prefer pre-let’s rather than spec development as it’s much more lucrative and developed dislike risk.
Thats for sure, Sunderland is reinventing itself and having a more commercial outlook which is great for the future. It’s adding new sectors away from its traditional manufacturing. It would be great to be like say Manchester - the capital of the north but it wouldn’t be realistic.
 

Osklen

Central Defender
Thats for sure, Sunderland is reinventing itself and having a more commercial outlook which is great for the future. It’s adding new sectors away from its traditional manufacturing. It would be great to be like say Manchester - the capital of the north but it wouldn’t be realistic.
Salford would be canny enough.
 

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