VAR

The wording bollocks is where the problems start. People try to put handball into neatly definable boxes. You can't. You have to accept some inconsistency and just let referees decide whether the offender was trying to gain an advantage.
 


They may be neutral but just disagree with you, when we discussed this last time you were quoting Rio, as a pundit becuase he agreed with you, which is fair enough.

But there will also be people who disagree with you as VAR has really spilt opinion, that does not mean there not netrual just that they disagree with you which is also fair enough.
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i'd like someone to carry out a poll, using match going supporters only and ask them if they are in favour or not. in my opinion, i think it would be 80-90% against.

same poll, but ask TV audience and journalists, and it would be closer to 50-50. imo obviously
 
Worst invention ever.

Depends on the freeze frame var uses. The player that passed to Sterling had his foot on the ball for 5/6 frames. The first 4 of which Sterling was onside. By the 5th frame he had moved offside.

Guess which frame VAR decided to use?
So you're saying on the 5th frame Sterling was offside and it was 5/6 frames the passer was touching the ball? Clear offside then ;)

That's the same as a keeper holding the ball and then throwing it, it's the last frame of the ball being touched that the pass is made. VAR find the frame where the ball has left the passing player using multi angles and go back 1 frame. It's not to the millisecond or mm but at least it's consistent.

There will be a few tight ones during the season but at least it's down to a frame and a few milliseconds rather than an official who most of the time is assuming if it was onside/offside.

I've not seen anything to say when it is applied. Especially since freeze frames at 1/25th of a second are being used.

However the offside rule on the FA website reads:

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:...

*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used

So if they are doing it by the frame the ball leaves the players foot they are contravening offside rules altogether.
oooh now that makes it interesting so ignore the above ;)
though surely that can't be right as that means if a keeper picks the ball up and then 6 seconds later throws it to someone who was offside 6 seconds ago but is now onside, it would still be offside?
 
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I think that’s a good post, as long as you accept without it, refs will make loads of mistakes and accept them mistakes, as what is certain is that the game is too fast for the human eye and without VAR we asking them to use the same tools they have had over 100 years ago just their eyes.
I fully accept that. It’s how it’s been until now but we’ve fallen into the usual trap that just because we have technology we have to use it
 
So you're saying on the 5th frame Sterling was offside and it was 5/6 frames the passer was touching the ball? Clear offside then ;)

That's the same as a keeper holding the ball and then throwing it, it's the last frame of the ball being touched that the pass is made. VAR find the frame where the ball has left the passing player using multi angles and go back 1 frame. It's not to the millisecond or mm but at least it's consistent.

There will be a few tight ones during the season but at least it's down to a frame and a few milliseconds rather than an official who most of the time is assuming if it was onside/offside.


oooh now that makes it interesting so ignore the above ;)
though surely that can't be right as that means if a keeper picks the ball up and then 6 seconds later throws it to someone who was offside 6 seconds ago but is now onside, it would still be offside?


Think it might be a bit different for a goalkeeper holding it then throwing it as 2 actions but yes, by thr laws of the game that sounds feasible ;)

If we are using video that freezes frames to get a decision right then it should be corrext 100% of the time and shouldn't be so easy to manipluate decisions or they should get rid of it altogether as nowt will have changed bar breaks in play.
 
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So you're saying on the 5th frame Sterling was offside and it was 5/6 frames the passer was touching the ball? Clear offside then ;)

That's the same as a keeper holding the ball and then throwing it, it's the last frame of the ball being touched that the pass is made. VAR find the frame where the ball has left the passing player using multi angles and go back 1 frame. It's not to the millisecond or mm but at least it's consistent.

There will be a few tight ones during the season but at least it's down to a frame and a few milliseconds rather than an official who most of the time is assuming if it was onside/offside.


oooh now that makes it interesting so ignore the above ;)
though surely that can't be right as that means if a keeper picks the ball up and then 6 seconds later throws it to someone who was offside 6 seconds ago but is now onside, it would still be offside?

What about a scooped chip over the defender for the attacker to run on to?
 
Think it might be a bit different for a goalkeeper holding it then throwing it as 2 actions but yes, by thr laws of the game that sounds feasible ;)

I think the touch part just means a brief touches so they'll still just use the 1 frame given how quick a touch can be and it also means deflections etc will be included as it doesn't have to be an intentional pass. A pass can still be a few frames as a player is still in possession while swinging the leg and the ball is still touching the foot. Think of the Ronaldinho drag where he fakes the kick as he rolls his foot around the ball. Why not just make the rule clear and simply say "A player in an offside position at the moment after the ball has last touched their team-mate intentionally or unintentionall, is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:..."

It's always been to the closest frame the ball leaves the player that most have used so the rules need updating for sure to make it clearer.
What about a scooped chip over the defender for the attacker to run on to?
Aye same thing. Though given the TV companies have used the frame closest to the ball leaving the player for years now then it's not really something new. It's just now that VAR is being used it needs to have a clear rule as to when they will try to determine offside.
 
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i'd like someone to carry out a poll, using match going supporters only and ask them if they are in favour or not. in my opinion, i think it would be 80-90% against.

same poll, but ask TV audience and journalists, and it would be closer to 50-50. imo obviously

They were plenty of match going supporters saying something had to be done to stop all these mistakes by refs, now something has.
 
I fully accept that. It’s how it’s been until now but we’ve fallen into the usual trap that just because we have technology we have to use it

Fair enough mate, but what I am getting at is too many haven't!

The constant criticism, sometimes abuse of refs, and over anyalsis of fair enough mistakes by them, has made VAR happen quickly.

Mind rightly or wrongly it was always going to happen at some point.
 
They were plenty of match going supporters saying something had to be done to stop all these mistakes by refs, now something has.

depends who you go the match with. i can't remember hearing many, if any, people saying that. and we have had our fair share of shite decisions over the years.

the trade off is clear - we get VAR and the cost is that we can't celebrate goals anymore. its that simple. i know which side i am on
They keep saying VAR will only be used to prevent a "clear and obvious" error being made. Sterling's incident couldn't be put in that category.

nah they changed their tone pretty much straight away when it was pointed out that 'clear and obvious' is subjective in itself
 
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They keep saying VAR will only be used to prevent a "clear and obvious" error being made. Sterling's incident couldn't be put in that category.

Offside has to be a black and white yes or no mind, as where to you draw the line with clear and obvious!

It's impossible and would cause further arguments.
depends who you go the match with. i can't remember hearing many, if any, people saying that. and we have had our fair share of shite decisions over the years.

the trade off is clear - we get VAR and the cost is that we can't celebrate goals anymore. its that simple. i know which side i am on


nah they changed their tone pretty much straight away when it was pointed out that 'clear and obvious' is subjective in itself

They were plenty on here both during the match and after on the match threads more than plenty.
 
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They were plenty of match going supporters saying something had to be done to stop all these mistakes by refs, now something has.
Correct, I don’t agree with var but it is going to be used, I don’t want to hear it’s going to have hiccups as it’s the 1st season, no it’s not it’s been being used for a few seasons now, get it right and then people cannot complain and they can make there minds up if they want to still watch football with that involved, I hope in 10 years we have a break away too league without var and it can screw sky sports over and let the fans take the game back to were it should be, simple and easy to follow and if a ref makes a mistake so what, it’s not like the players never make a mistake
 
Correct, I don’t agree with var but it is going to be used, I don’t want to hear it’s going to have hiccups as it’s the 1st season, no it’s not it’s been being used for a few seasons now, get it right and then people cannot complain and they can make there minds up if they want to still watch football with that involved, I hope in 10 years we have a break away too league without var and it can screw sky sports over and let the fans take the game back to were it should be, simple and easy to follow and if a ref makes a mistake so what, it’s not like the players never make a mistake

Rightly or wrongly mate, that's just not going to happen, you right we need to get VAR as correct as we possibly can, because it's going no where.

I totally agree with your last point, if everybody accepted mistakes by refs the same way they accepted mistakes by players, then VAR may not have happened or at least delayed.
 
They keep saying VAR will only be used to prevent a "clear and obvious" error being made. Sterling's incident couldn't be put in that category.

Who decides what's clear and obvious? Basically back to square one with this one.
Still think an appeals system would stop all the nonsense over night!
 
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Rightly or wrongly mate, that's just not going to happen, you right we need to get VAR as correct as we possibly can, because it's going no where.

I totally agree with your last point, if everybody accepted mistakes by refs the same way they accepted mistakes by players, then VAR may not have happened or at least delayed.

it was always going to happen, regardless of how many people did or didn't complain. since when did FIFA give a fuck what fans think. its a money making scam to increase marketability to foreign TV audiences. hence why pundits and TV channels have clearly been briefed to not criticise it. some fans are falling for it as they think it makes them sound ultra modern and progressive.
 
I’m not even convinced it’s getting rid of the errors, just changing what the errors are. This weekend alone, the sterling offside goal is given offside because he can play the ball with his shoulder but the wolves lad hits the ball with his shoulder and it’s given handball as you can’t play the ball with the same area of the body.
If you watch the slo-mo replays, it hits his forearm just below the onside of his elbow as this is how it actually ends bouncing back up to his head. The replay from 1:54 and the 2nd angle right after shows this if you slow it down further to 0.25 speed


Sterling’s second goal, Aguero was clearly offside and interfering
Aguero wasn't interefering at all. He didn't play or challenge the ball, he wasn't blocking anyone's vision or breaking any of the other rules regarding interferance.

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there were three Man City players infringing on the penalty that was scored which was allowed somehow despite the save being disallowed due to infringement. And that’s just one game...
It's a bit messy but it all depends on what the penna taker, keeper, players outside the box do and also whether a goal is scored or not. As you can see below in the rules by the last rule if both the penna taker and keeper commit offence then it depends on if a goal is scored as to what happens next. If a goal that was scored then ends up being a free kick to defending team and the attacking team lose out but if the penna is missed then the defending team lose out and it's retaken! It's only the fact Rice hoofed the ball clear that the encroachment offence was then commited. If Mahrez who was behind him had also encroached but then got to the ball before Rice then Mahrez would have been pulled up.


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Aye VAR has its negatives but it isn't helped when people don't fully understand the rules, though this is understandable at the moment, or think they see things that actually didn't happen upon closer review. In time this will change and the debatable things like this won't even be debatable as it's all within the rules.
 
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They keep saying VAR will only be used to prevent a "clear and obvious" error being made. Sterling's incident couldn't be put in that category.

Offside is not a subjective decision, like a penalty or red card. So "clear and obvious" doesn't apply. That's been made clear by every authority from FIFA downwards. You're either offside or not or, as Pierluigi Collina put it "You can't be just a little bit offside".
 

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