UK’s first EV rapid charging station in Sunderland

James said:
That bit about the council saying it's committed to reducing vehicle emissions did make me laugh. There was news a few weeks ago that they're about to start building a massive new road.
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Aren’t most emissions made when vehicles are sat in traffic though ? So a better infrastructure will help - people aren’t going to go out and buy a car that didn’t have one previously because a new road is built and he phasing out of diesels will help enormously too
 


West_Winger said:
So you’re asking if they could also be used to catch people who break the law?

I’m struggling to see the downside tbh.
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If you've never committed a single traffic offence good on you but I'd guess 99.99% of drivers have committed at least one offence in the last year, if not thousands of offences. It'll be used as a cash generator just like speed scammeras.
 
Nookie Bear said:
Aren’t most emissions made when vehicles are sat in traffic though ? So a better infrastructure will help - people aren’t going to go out and buy a car that didn’t have one previously because a new road is built and he phasing out of diesels will help enormously too
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New road infrastructure fills up pretty quick, it's called induced demand. What do you when that road is at capacity? Where do you draw the line?
 
James said:
New road infrastructure fills up pretty quick, it's called induced demand. What do you when that road is at capacity? Where do you draw the line?
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We only get the dregs for our infrastructure in the north east. Until you throw money at public transport like they do in London, people are always going to be reliant on cars.
 
Wilfy said:
We only get the dregs for our infrastructure in the north east. Until you throw money at public transport like they do in London, people are always going to be reliant on cars.
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Agree completely. You don't need London levels of investment to make a big difference though. I do think you're just willingly throwing cash into a black hole with road widening/building projects though. They're short term solutions to long term problems. Unfortunately nothing will change as we ignore all data when it comes to transport. Both political parties are terrible.
 
Pancho said:
Can you please provide links to back up your assertion that EV's are no less polluting than an economical diesel.
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Having set off to find something for you, I think i've found the best write up i've seen on the subject.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55627041.pdf

The authors conclusion is that all in all, in real world tests, the EV will use around half as much energy as a modern diesel.

That is comparing a Renault Megane with a 52 mpg diesel engine to a Fluence ZE (with a 185 km range battery).

Given that the Fluence ZE is a cutting edge EV, i'd have liked them to have tested against a new diesel with 80+ mpg, but i'm happy to concede that EVs are finally better than diesels (my shit maths would say an the ZE against a better diesel would still be about 25% more efficient power wise and that power will in part be drawn from cleaner sources too).

I still stand by my other statements, in that for EVs to take off they need much better batteries in terms of energy density; else they'll never be able to match the range of a diesel without sacrificing the efficiency (much heavier cars) plus they'll cost a fortune. The government also needs to sort it's shit out and get some proper infrastructure in place instead of relying on local councils to install the charge points in supermarkets and homes (as they won't be up to it in the end - nice write up here Home EV charging will not be the future, says UK’s National Grid | Autovista Group).
 
Tuono said:
If you've never committed a single traffic offence good on you but I'd guess 99.99% of drivers have committed at least one offence in the last year, if not thousands of offences. It'll be used as a cash generator just like speed scammeras.
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Mr Herbal would have to walk everywhere :lol:

hypersonic said:
Having set off to find something for you, I think i've found the best write up i've seen on the subject.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55627041.pdf

The authors conclusion is that all in all, in real world tests, the EV will use around half as much energy as a modern diesel.

That is comparing a Renault Megane with a 52 mpg diesel engine to a Fluence ZE (with a 185 km range battery).

Given that the Fluence ZE is a cutting edge EV, i'd have liked them to have tested against a new diesel with 80+ mpg, but i'm happy to concede that EVs are finally better than diesels (my shit maths would say an the ZE against a better diesel would still be about 25% more efficient power wise and that power will in part be drawn from cleaner sources too).

I still stand by my other statements, in that for EVs to take off they need much better batteries in terms of energy density; else they'll never be able to match the range of a diesel without sacrificing the efficiency (much heavier cars) plus they'll cost a fortune. The government also needs to sort it's shit out and get some proper infrastructure in place instead of relying on local councils to install the charge points in supermarkets and homes (as they won't be up to it in the end - nice write up here Home EV charging will not be the future, says UK’s National Grid | Autovista Group).
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That car has been replaced by the zoe
 
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hypersonic said:
Having set off to find something for you, I think i've found the best write up i've seen on the subject.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55627041.pdf

The authors conclusion is that all in all, in real world tests, the EV will use around half as much energy as a modern diesel.

That is comparing a Renault Megane with a 52 mpg diesel engine to a Fluence ZE (with a 185 km range battery).

Given that the Fluence ZE is a cutting edge EV, i'd have liked them to have tested against a new diesel with 80+ mpg, but i'm happy to concede that EVs are finally better than diesels (my shit maths would say an the ZE against a better diesel would still be about 25% more efficient power wise and that power will in part be drawn from cleaner sources too).

I still stand by my other statements, in that for EVs to take off they need much better batteries in terms of energy density; else they'll never be able to match the range of a diesel without sacrificing the efficiency (much heavier cars) plus they'll cost a fortune. The government also needs to sort it's shit out and get some proper infrastructure in place instead of relying on local councils to install the charge points in supermarkets and homes (as they won't be up to it in the end - nice write up here Home EV charging will not be the future, says UK’s National Grid | Autovista Group).
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Thank you. I trust you haven't neglected the kids to find that link.

I'll read it and respond in due course.
In the meanwhile I'd just like to point out that there are two separate pollution issues here which often get confused.

The first one is that of diesel emissions of NOx and particulates which are contributing to very poor air quality in cities and other built up areas. Research has shown that developing children are very vulnerable to this type of pollution and so for me is the more urgent issue.

There are no easy or popular answers to this problem but anything that reduces the use of older pre-Euro 6 diesels is to be welcomed.

The second issue is that of the emission by vehicles of greenhouse gasses such as CO2 and this is where it is reasonable to question the total efficacy of EV over conventional petrol/diesel.
 
Tuono said:
Roads used for charging vehicles sound great but can we guarantee they will not be used by the authorities to track cars and fine speeders? Or even prevent un-taxed cars being able to be charged up at all?
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There won't be many speeders after 2022 when all new cares will be fitted with speed limiters by default
 
James said:
New road infrastructure fills up pretty quick, it's called induced demand. What do you when that road is at capacity? Where do you draw the line?
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So if we reduce demand the use of cars will go down? City centres have been made unwelcoming to cars for the last 30 years with pedestrianisation, traffic calming schemes, public transport priority schemes, emissions and congestion charging. In the same period car ownership has doubled. I'd argue that roadbuilding is keeping up with demand rather than creating it.
 
Paddy O'Dors said:
So if we reduce demand the use of cars will go down? City centres have been made unwelcoming to cars for the last 30 years with pedestrianisation, traffic calming schemes, public transport priority schemes, emissions and congestion charging. In the same period car ownership has doubled. I'd argue that roadbuilding is keeping up with demand rather than creating it.
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You'd be wrong, and there are a lot of studies supporting what I'm saying. We have reduced demand for driving in cities, it has worked. If you remove car parking spaces, make it a pain to drive, and of course provide alternative ways of getting around then people will drive less. Car ownership in London is decreasing yearly and people are driving less (but still loads). Where you take the issue seriously you get good results.

The failure outside of London has been continuing with the status quo, building roads, creating new residential developments that rely on car usage, widening and creating new roads, out of town shopping centres with awful PT links. The list is long.

Old Timer said:
Such as?
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Walking and cycling plus public transport. We need to move away from the idea that we’ll always have to drive for every trip. The majority of trips made are under 3km, and they're mostly driven. That is mental, and a sad reflection on the way we've prioritised private motor traffic over any other way of moving.

100 electric cars outside of a primary school in a morning is still minging and dangerous, it's just slightly less worse than combustion engine vehicles.
 
James said:
You'd be wrong, and there are a lot of studies supporting what I'm saying. We have reduced demand for driving in cities, it has worked. If you remove car parking spaces, make it a pain to drive, and of course provide alternative ways of getting around then people will drive less. Car ownership in London is decreasing yearly and people are driving less (but still loads). Where you take the issue seriously you get good results.

The failure outside of London has been continuing with the status quo, building roads, creating new residential developments that rely on car usage, widening and creating new roads, out of town shopping centres with awful PT links. The list is long.



Walking and cycling plus public transport. We need to move away from the idea that we’ll always have to drive for every trip. The majority of trips made are under 3km, and they're mostly driven. That is mental, and a sad reflection on the way we've prioritised private motor traffic over any other way of moving.

100 electric cars outside of a primary school in a morning is still minging and dangerous, it's just slightly less worse than combustion engine vehicles.
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I don't disagree with you about people walking more and the need for a cheap, even free local public transport service. Having said that there will still be a need for people to have their own transport and that transport can not be based on any form of carbon fuel. So you need both the infrastructure for EV AND better public transport, it can not be an either to.
 
Pancho said:
Thank you. I trust you haven't neglected the kids to find that link.

I'll read it and respond in due course.
In the meanwhile I'd just like to point out that there are two separate pollution issues here which often get confused.

The first one is that of diesel emissions of NOx and particulates which are contributing to very poor air quality in cities and other built up areas. Research has shown that developing children are very vulnerable to this type of pollution and so for me is the more urgent issue.

There are no easy or popular answers to this problem but anything that reduces the use of older pre-Euro 6 diesels is to be welcomed.

The second issue is that of the emission by vehicles of greenhouse gasses such as CO2 and this is where it is reasonable to question the total efficacy of EV over conventional petrol/diesel.
Click to expand...
The kids are in the cage, might let them out in a bit ;)
 
Old Timer said:
I don't disagree with you about people walking more and the need for a cheap, even free local public transport service. Having said that there will still be a need for people to have their own transport and that transport can not be based on any form of carbon fuel. So you need both the infrastructure for EV AND better public transport, it can not be an either to.
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Yep I don't disagree with that. I just get a bit bored by people thinking electric cars are the silver bullet. They're less of an issue at the point of emitting from the exhaust, but they're still a problem if we continue to plan around them as the primary mode of moving people about.
 
TheGreenMan said:
Try driving one. People need to look at how they use their car. I've had a leaf for 6 months, it's done 4000 miles and I have only ever charged it at home. It's a lovely car to drive. There are of car journeys done every day that could be much better done in an electric car. Think of all the pollution caused by short commutes ( 50 or less) and school runs.


Why, who drives their car for 23 hours a day. All we need are charging points in places you leave your car. If it's not moving, it's charging
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I personally don’t believe that normally aspirated cars cause as much pollution as people say. If we really want to stop “pollution” and improve “air quality”, why not ban all airplane travel and imports brought to the UK by lorry?
 
TDalt said:
I personally don’t believe that normally aspirated cars cause as much pollution as people say. If we really want to stop “pollution” and improve “air quality”, why not ban all airplane travel and imports brought to the UK by lorry?
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Electric planes?
 

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