The system (part 3)


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So, the first game of the season has been and gone and it really was a nightmare.

I am really disappointed how we crumbled and looked disjointed, unorganized and far to open to any form of attack. Yes, the players have to take individual responsibility for their actions and performances however, is the system a to blame ?

People make refer to last year when we played it and got points towards the last part of the season, however, we were in survival mode and the main objective was to defend deep and hope for a counter or to nick a goal. Yday, was not like that, it was meant to be an even game where attacking and defending should have been in equal proportions.

My concerns are, the fullbacks are getting bashed on here, and partially that is right however, I do think they are fighting a losing battle. Having played left back all my life, at a decent level, it's easy to see the faults that PVA made yday as an individual but also just as easy to see what an impossible job he had. Dick instructs the full backs to fly forward at every opportunity, it's more emphasis on attack than defense and you can see this as soon as any CM gets the ball, our full backs are bombing up the wing and are at the half way line quickly. The issue is, our CM is far to rash and poor in terms of ball retention, losing the ball far to quickly and turning over possession. This leaves the fullbacks out of position and exposed. If they don't make the run then we have no width at all and they will get pelters for that too. Furthermore, we ask the wide players to support the loan striker so they are high up the pitch, offering no cover at all to the full backs, again leaving then open to 2-1 situations.

The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.

CM need to step up and hopefully M'vila can add better ball control and we can build attacks instead of losing the ball in the middle of one. Roswell needs to get sharp and quick. Cattermole has a head losing game, not his first and won't be his last.

Wide forwards done ok in the attacking sense, but we really will get hammered down the wings on a defensive side. Think we should change the shape.

Defoe, done what he has always done. Create and he will score. Nice finish and movement for his goal. Fletcher made mistakes when he came on but again, caused issues and made us more effective going forward. Good desire for the goal too.

Going forward ? Maybe a flag 4-4-2 might be better. Cover for the fullbacks and support for Defoe, who can play off Fletcher.

If we get Adanan Jan, maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Lens, Jan and AJ in behind the striker with Catts and M'Vila provide protection and balls forward to the attacking group.

Long winded but feel free to contribute some tactical thoughts. Probably just get we are shite like. :lol:
It's up to the full backs to make the correct decision when to bomb forward and when to stay they shouldn't be doing it unless they are sure we have kept possession they were just going forward for the sake of it yesterday even when we were not fully in control of the ball,it boils down to decision making when to stay or go
 
I've just posted similar in another thread. Not convinced by system and suggested 442 might provide more protection for pva especially.

Agree with coates too
Think it will end up 4-2-3-1 with catts and M'Vila holding giving licence for the 2 wides and a new CAM to bomb on.
 
It's up to the full backs to make the correct decision when to bomb forward and when to stay they shouldn't be doing it unless they are sure we have kept possession they were just going forward for the sake of it yesterday even when we were not fully in control of the ball,it boils down to decision making when to stay or go

Normally I would agree with you. However, Dick puts so much emphasis on them to play as actual wing backs. He has said so many times and you can see our FB playing higher up the pitch. I think we should reign it in. Get them to defend, first and foremost anyway.
 
To many players that are weak mentally and look for the easy life, they work when THEY wan't to work, not when the manager\s want them to work.

Why do we keep signing this type though. For me, Rodwell's biggest failing isn't his lack of ability, it's his lack of self-belief. In an ideal world sign players who are mentally tough but if you already have weaklings then why not consider some form of therapy with a sports psychologist......it's not quackery and several top athletes use it on a regular basis.
 
Not another season criticising the manager and 'his system'. Poyet was nailed for this as well.

Yeah I know people want to talk tactics. Fair enough. BUT our problems are due to four or five players in key positions just not being good enough.

We need to fix that before the system is even relevant IMHO. We will struggle no matter what the tactics.
 
One thing I'm sure about is we won't miss Wickham. There was nothing Wickham could have done in that game that would have changed it. So it's clear to me that getting shot of him was a good idea, he was a pointless player who added nothing and would have missed the chances Fletcher and Defoe scored.

What we need is two midfielders, one like Ki and one like Fer, ball-retention, creativity and strength in the middle of the park.
 
Not another season criticising the manager and 'his system'. Poyet was nailed for this as well.

Yeah I know people want to talk tactics. Fair enough. BUT our problems are due to four or five players in key positions just not being good enough.

We need to fix that before the system is even relevant IMHO. We will struggle no matter what the tactics.

So your saying we have weak players and therefore the system is irrelevant?

I am saying this system exposes our weaknesses further.
 
So, the first game of the season has been and gone and it really was a nightmare.

I am really disappointed how we crumbled and looked disjointed, unorganized and far to open to any form of attack. Yes, the players have to take individual responsibility for their actions and performances however, is the system a to blame ?

People make refer to last year when we played it and got points towards the last part of the season, however, we were in survival mode and the main objective was to defend deep and hope for a counter or to nick a goal. Yday, was not like that, it was meant to be an even game where attacking and defending should have been in equal proportions.

My concerns are, the fullbacks are getting bashed on here, and partially that is right however, I do think they are fighting a losing battle. Having played left back all my life, at a decent level, it's easy to see the faults that PVA made yday as an individual but also just as easy to see what an impossible job he had. Dick instructs the full backs to fly forward at every opportunity, it's more emphasis on attack than defense and you can see this as soon as any CM gets the ball, our full backs are bombing up the wing and are at the half way line quickly. The issue is, our CM is far to rash and poor in terms of ball retention, losing the ball far to quickly and turning over possession. This leaves the fullbacks out of position and exposed. If they don't make the run then we have no width at all and they will get pelters for that too. Furthermore, we ask the wide players to support the loan striker so they are high up the pitch, offering no cover at all to the full backs, again leaving then open to 2-1 situations.

The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.

CM need to step up and hopefully M'vila can add better ball control and we can build attacks instead of losing the ball in the middle of one. Roswell needs to get sharp and quick. Cattermole has a head losing game, not his first and won't be his last.

Wide forwards done ok in the attacking sense, but we really will get hammered down the wings on a defensive side. Think we should change the shape.

Defoe, done what he has always done. Create and he will score. Nice finish and movement for his goal. Fletcher made mistakes when he came on but again, caused issues and made us more effective going forward. Good desire for the goal too.

Going forward ? Maybe a flag 4-4-2 might be better. Cover for the fullbacks and support for Defoe, who can play off Fletcher.

If we get Adanan Jan, maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Lens, Jan and AJ in behind the striker with Catts and M'Vila provide protection and balls forward to the attacking group.

Long winded but feel free to contribute some tactical thoughts. Probably just get we are shite like. :lol:

Most insightful post on here. We have a dilemma - Johnson is our most effective player but needs a free role. Defoe needs to play in a two. This is leading to a 4-3-3 with three central midfielders leaving two wide forwards offering negligible cover for full backs
 
So your saying we have weak players and therefore the system is irrelevant?

I am saying this system exposes our weaknesses further.

I'm saying no system could get this team to play well. Too many not good enough.

Poyet was criticised for his system, dick is seemingly getting criticised now (after 1 game). Let's not get on the managers back for tactics - it clearly isn't his fault.
 
I'm saying no system could get this team to play well. Too many not good enough.

Poyet was criticised for his system, dick is seemingly getting criticised now (after 1 game). Let's not get on the managers back for tactics - it clearly isn't his fault.

I am discussing our set up. Do I think it can be better? Yes. I feel that Dick got it very wrong yday and I am not afraid to day it. It's really clear the way he wants us to play however, we don't have the personnel for it. So therefore, CHANGE the set up!
 
I've never been a fan of it and dunno why we've persisted with it for so long when it quite clearly isn't working. The midfield is always too far away from the front 3 and with their lack of pace they are never able to get up the pitch quick enough to support them. We should be playing a 4231 like a lot of teams in this league are now but obviously haven't got the players for that yet.
 
I'll simplify it

The players are bargain basement/loanees/has-beens/free transfers or Championship fodder

There is no heart & the majority of this squad aren't really bothered about their jobs here
 
Another thing which pisses me off is the fact that when we have inept display like this we're told it's because our new players need to settle in or build a partnership.

So that'll be why Wijnaldum and Ayew can come right in, score on their debuts and look canny then? And why Mbemba for Newcastle and a 16-year-old for West Ham can come into a team for the first time and look very decent.

Something stinks at Sunderland, and it has done for ages.
 
Until we get a real playmaker in and prove that we can keep the ball in close games, the only "system" that "plays to our strengths" is Martin O'Neill/Gus Poyet turgid nonsense on the edge of our own box.
 
Another thing which pisses me off is the fact that when we have inept display like this we're told it's because our new players need to settle in or build a partnership.

So that'll be why Wijnaldum and Ayew can come right in, score on their debuts and look canny then? And why Mbemba for Newcastle and a 16-year-old for West Ham can come into a team for the first time and look very decent.

Something stinks at Sunderland, and it has done for ages.

That will be the people employed to make the decisions.
 
Prehab is right the full backs were exposed and that was partly to their poor decision making and the midfields nonexistance. If Dick can get M'Villa in the team for next weekend, and a creative attacking player we stand a chance of keeping this formation and set up, till we have those two players in the team we have to play a simpler defensive game.
 
So, the first game of the season has been and gone and it really was a nightmare.

I am really disappointed how we crumbled and looked disjointed, unorganized and far to open to any form of attack. Yes, the players have to take individual responsibility for their actions and performances however, is the system a to blame ?

People make refer to last year when we played it and got points towards the last part of the season, however, we were in survival mode and the main objective was to defend deep and hope for a counter or to nick a goal. Yday, was not like that, it was meant to be an even game where attacking and defending should have been in equal proportions.

My concerns are, the fullbacks are getting bashed on here, and partially that is right however, I do think they are fighting a losing battle. Having played left back all my life, at a decent level, it's easy to see the faults that PVA made yday as an individual but also just as easy to see what an impossible job he had. Dick instructs the full backs to fly forward at every opportunity, it's more emphasis on attack than defense and you can see this as soon as any CM gets the ball, our full backs are bombing up the wing and are at the half way line quickly. The issue is, our CM is far to rash and poor in terms of ball retention, losing the ball far to quickly and turning over possession. This leaves the fullbacks out of position and exposed. If they don't make the run then we have no width at all and they will get pelters for that too. Furthermore, we ask the wide players to support the loan striker so they are high up the pitch, offering no cover at all to the full backs, again leaving then open to 2-1 situations.

The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.

CM need to step up and hopefully M'vila can add better ball control and we can build attacks instead of losing the ball in the middle of one. Roswell needs to get sharp and quick. Cattermole has a head losing game, not his first and won't be his last.

Wide forwards done ok in the attacking sense, but we really will get hammered down the wings on a defensive side. Think we should change the shape.

Defoe, done what he has always done. Create and he will score. Nice finish and movement for his goal. Fletcher made mistakes when he came on but again, caused issues and made us more effective going forward. Good desire for the goal too.

Going forward ? Maybe a flag 4-4-2 might be better. Cover for the fullbacks and support for Defoe, who can play off Fletcher.

If we get Adanan Jan, maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Lens, Jan and AJ in behind the striker with Catts and M'Vila provide protection and balls forward to the attacking group.

Long winded but feel free to contribute some tactical thoughts. Probably just get we are shite like. :lol:
Good post. The key for me is midfield. We need to be solid and responsible in there and there must be cover provided by fullback. I don't personally like 4-2-3-1 as it quickly turns into either a cavalier 4-2-4 and we get opened up or it becomes a stodgy 4-4-2 and we've got the wrong players out wide in lens and Johnson. We need the better ball retention you talk about and just simply a 100% improvement in the centre. We need mcila to work and one more genuine all round midfielder in plus any one of the remainder to make up a three
 
Worked well last season... Now catts had a nightmare... And Rodwell a really bad start. And Lester a good plan
 
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