The system (part 3)


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I agree 4-3-3 away from home was ambitious but it was Leicester and it was looking good till their first goal from a set piece.

If we are going to carry on with 4-3-3 then Defoe is not a central striker.
 
Dick is on a steep learning curve - managing several players for the first time who are not in survival mode.

He has now seen for himself the underlying motivational issues and will (hopefully) adapt his management style and match tactics accordingly. Will be interesting to see his and the teams reaction next week.

Also if Short was hoping he doesn't need to invest more heavily to avoid another depressing relegation scramble then this performance spoke volumes and might hopefully lever a bit more funding.
 
So, the first game of the season has been and gone and it really was a nightmare.

I am really disappointed how we crumbled and looked disjointed, unorganized and far to open to any form of attack. Yes, the players have to take individual responsibility for their actions and performances however, is the system a to blame ?

People make refer to last year when we played it and got points towards the last part of the season, however, we were in survival mode and the main objective was to defend deep and hope for a counter or to nick a goal. Yday, was not like that, it was meant to be an even game where attacking and defending should have been in equal proportions.

My concerns are, the fullbacks are getting bashed on here, and partially that is right however, I do think they are fighting a losing battle. Having played left back all my life, at a decent level, it's easy to see the faults that PVA made yday as an individual but also just as easy to see what an impossible job he had. Dick instructs the full backs to fly forward at every opportunity, it's more emphasis on attack than defense and you can see this as soon as any CM gets the ball, our full backs are bombing up the wing and are at the half way line quickly. The issue is, our CM is far to rash and poor in terms of ball retention, losing the ball far to quickly and turning over possession. This leaves the fullbacks out of position and exposed. If they don't make the run then we have no width at all and they will get pelters for that too. Furthermore, we ask the wide players to support the loan striker so they are high up the pitch, offering no cover at all to the full backs, again leaving then open to 2-1 situations.

The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.

CM need to step up and hopefully M'vila can add better ball control and we can build attacks instead of losing the ball in the middle of one. Roswell needs to get sharp and quick. Cattermole has a head losing game, not his first and won't be his last.

Wide forwards done ok in the attacking sense, but we really will get hammered down the wings on a defensive side. Think we should change the shape.

Defoe, done what he has always done. Create and he will score. Nice finish and movement for his goal. Fletcher made mistakes when he came on but again, caused issues and made us more effective going forward. Good desire for the goal too.

Going forward ? Maybe a flag 4-4-2 might be better. Cover for the fullbacks and support for Defoe, who can play off Fletcher.

If we get Adanan Jan, maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Lens, Jan and AJ in behind the striker with Catts and M'Vila provide protection and balls forward to the attacking group.

Long winded but feel free to contribute some tactical thoughts. Probably just get we are shite like. :lol:


Absolutely spot on agree with it all cracking post prehab:cool:
 
Dick is on a steep learning curve - managing several players for the first time who are not in survival mode.

He has now seen for himself the underlying motivational issues and will (hopefully) adapt his management style and match tactics accordingly. Will be interesting to see his and the teams reaction next week.

Also if Short was hoping he doesn't need to invest more heavily to avoid another depressing relegation scramble then this performance spoke volumes and might hopefully lever a bit more funding.

Agree. It's a different ball game from taking over and to be in survival mode from the get go.

Absolutely spot on agree with it all cracking post prehab:cool:

No bother. Glad it struck with some!
 
So, the first game of the season has been and gone and it really was a nightmare.

I am really disappointed how we crumbled and looked disjointed, unorganized and far to open to any form of attack. Yes, the players have to take individual responsibility for their actions and performances however, is the system a to blame ?

People make refer to last year when we played it and got points towards the last part of the season, however, we were in survival mode and the main objective was to defend deep and hope for a counter or to nick a goal. Yday, was not like that, it was meant to be an even game where attacking and defending should have been in equal proportions.

My concerns are, the fullbacks are getting bashed on here, and partially that is right however, I do think they are fighting a losing battle. Having played left back all my life, at a decent level, it's easy to see the faults that PVA made yday as an individual but also just as easy to see what an impossible job he had. Dick instructs the full backs to fly forward at every opportunity, it's more emphasis on attack than defense and you can see this as soon as any CM gets the ball, our full backs are bombing up the wing and are at the half way line quickly. The issue is, our CM is far to rash and poor in terms of ball retention, losing the ball far to quickly and turning over possession. This leaves the fullbacks out of position and exposed. If they don't make the run then we have no width at all and they will get pelters for that too. Furthermore, we ask the wide players to support the loan striker so they are high up the pitch, offering no cover at all to the full backs, again leaving then open to 2-1 situations.

The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.

CM need to step up and hopefully M'vila can add better ball control and we can build attacks instead of losing the ball in the middle of one. Roswell needs to get sharp and quick. Cattermole has a head losing game, not his first and won't be his last.

Wide forwards done ok in the attacking sense, but we really will get hammered down the wings on a defensive side. Think we should change the shape.

Defoe, done what he has always done. Create and he will score. Nice finish and movement for his goal. Fletcher made mistakes when he came on but again, caused issues and made us more effective going forward. Good desire for the goal too.

Going forward ? Maybe a flag 4-4-2 might be better. Cover for the fullbacks and support for Defoe, who can play off Fletcher.

If we get Adanan Jan, maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Lens, Jan and AJ in behind the striker with Catts and M'Vila provide protection and balls forward to the attacking group.

Long winded but feel free to contribute some tactical thoughts. Probably just get we are shite like. :lol:

If we play attacking full backs the onus is largely on the holding midfielder to cover losing the ball.

He can either drop into centre half allowing one of the centre backs to cover the vacant full back position or chase the ball down himself. Obviously depending on the situation.

I didn't see the game yesterday but it seems Cattermole didn't do either.
 
You know how bad your midfield is when Jordi Gomez is a huge miss. The problems all stem from a midfield that is only good in a backs to the wall, defend for your lives situation.

M'Vila, Gomez and a new signing to play when fit. I've had enough.
 
If we play attacking full backs the onus is largely on the holding midfielder to cover losing the ball.

He can either drop into centre half allowing one of the centre backs to cover the vacant full back position or chase the ball down himself. Obviously depending on the situation.

I didn't see the game yesterday but it seems Cattermole didn't do either.

I agree, that is the role of the holding CM. Cattermole didn't do that yday, he normally is very good at screening. Think the disjointed CB's never helped either though. They were all over the shop.

An I fuck reading all that


Your decision mate.
 
The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.
Sadly, even if either Coates or Kaboul were to learn how to hold the line together, they're both terrible defenders that allow attackers to turn inside their shoulders and run past them into space. I think opposition sides would easily build play patiently from the wings and still exploit Coates/Kaboul's weaknesses.

Does JOS have enough pace left in him to provide coverage for either Coates or Kaboul? Highly unlikely in my view.
 
I agree, that is the role of the holding CM. Cattermole didn't do that yday, he normally is very good at screening. Think the disjointed CB's never helped either though. They were all over the shop.

Yes, having seen the goals, individual defensive performances didn't help either like.
 
Sadly, even if either Coates or Kaboul were to learn how to hold the line together, they're both terrible defenders that allow attackers to turn inside their shoulders and run past them into space. I think opposition sides would easily build play patiently from the wings and still exploit Coates/Kaboul's weaknesses.

Does JOS have enough pace left in him to provide coverage for either Coates or Kaboul? Highly unlikely in my view.

No but if your fullbacks actually are in the correct position with less emphasis on attacking, they both have pace and IMO their job is to over the slow centre backs.

Yes, having seen the goals, individual defensive performances didn't help either like.

I agree, there is individual Blame to. Absolutely.
 
Aye, that is a point mind you. He won't take any shit and I expect yday to have meant an immediate meeting with LC and ES demanding cash getting spent.

Bringing catts off after 30 mind is a massive indication of how advocaat feels from that game. In my opinion, if we dont bring in some proper quality dick will walk early september due to false promises and not meeting his expectations. Sounds dramatic but he, like us know it has to change or everyone ends up with a bad looking cv from the experience of working here. No way will he accept shite
 
So, the first game of the season has been and gone and it really was a nightmare.

I am really disappointed how we crumbled and looked disjointed, unorganized and far to open to any form of attack. Yes, the players have to take individual responsibility for their actions and performances however, is the system a to blame ?

People make refer to last year when we played it and got points towards the last part of the season, however, we were in survival mode and the main objective was to defend deep and hope for a counter or to nick a goal. Yday, was not like that, it was meant to be an even game where attacking and defending should have been in equal proportions.

My concerns are, the fullbacks are getting bashed on here, and partially that is right however, I do think they are fighting a losing battle. Having played left back all my life, at a decent level, it's easy to see the faults that PVA made yday as an individual but also just as easy to see what an impossible job he had. Dick instructs the full backs to fly forward at every opportunity, it's more emphasis on attack than defense and you can see this as soon as any CM gets the ball, our full backs are bombing up the wing and are at the half way line quickly. The issue is, our CM is far to rash and poor in terms of ball retention, losing the ball far to quickly and turning over possession. This leaves the fullbacks out of position and exposed. If they don't make the run then we have no width at all and they will get pelters for that too. Furthermore, we ask the wide players to support the loan striker so they are high up the pitch, offering no cover at all to the full backs, again leaving then open to 2-1 situations.

The 2 CH need to be far more organized and know how each other want to play, far to many times one was playing offside and one was playing deep. Coates is a huge concern and should be replaced by JOS. Think JOS and Kaboul will be fine in the middle. More experience and should be more organized.

CM need to step up and hopefully M'vila can add better ball control and we can build attacks instead of losing the ball in the middle of one. Roswell needs to get sharp and quick. Cattermole has a head losing game, not his first and won't be his last.

Wide forwards done ok in the attacking sense, but we really will get hammered down the wings on a defensive side. Think we should change the shape.

Defoe, done what he has always done. Create and he will score. Nice finish and movement for his goal. Fletcher made mistakes when he came on but again, caused issues and made us more effective going forward. Good desire for the goal too.

Going forward ? Maybe a flag 4-4-2 might be better. Cover for the fullbacks and support for Defoe, who can play off Fletcher.

If we get Adanan Jan, maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Lens, Jan and AJ in behind the striker with Catts and M'Vila provide protection and balls forward to the attacking group.

Long winded but feel free to contribute some tactical thoughts. Probably just get we are shite like. :lol:
Based on his time at spurs and his debut yesterday i ,d be packing a suitcase for kaboul , joke of a signing rather play coates with oshea and let him learn his trade he'S young and at least has potential , i know nothing about mvila but if he doesnt have an immediate impact we are dead.arson , catts . And rodwell the three of em might as well play facing their own goal so negative , catts looked tgis bad all preseason and hasnt got any better, fullbacks bombing forward acphrase that doesnt apply to jones imo , poor defender and offer nothing at the other end , not a sngle cross from him yesterday which is the norm. The way we got hit time and time again onbthe break i agree 442 might have solidified us more but at 3-0 down at least dick didnt go into damage limitation mode at halftime.
Sad to say i saw this coming , dick should have been thanked for saving us and shown the door, basucally he turned us into a sit deep and launch it team. Dont even get me started on the lack of quality additions in this window, yesterday will have Been an expected consequence to dick and his staff , he hasnt got the players he wanted and it is obvious our owner has closed his wallet , in short this is the season we are flushed down the drain to join the boro in the shit league.
 
I agree 4-3-3 away from home was ambitious but it was Leicester and it was looking good till their first goal from a set piece.

If we are going to carry on with 4-3-3 then Defoe is not a central striker.
I dont see this an a big problem. In fact i think defoe can be excellent in that role as long as we play on the ground. Id prefer that style of play.... need the midfield to be capable first!
 
No but if your fullbacks actually are in the correct position with less emphasis on attacking, they both have pace and IMO their job is to over the slow centre backs.
In theory... But then you lose width in attack when fatigue sets in. Not to mention the problem of keeping the fullbacks fit for an entire season.

I think the club needs to bite the bullet and acquire a promising, young CH on loan and pay over the odds this month for a legitimate CH.

At the very least, if Rodwell is a complete failure at CM, see if he can still play CH since improving on Coates's performance from this match is a low hurdle to cross.
 
Catts had a really bad game, rodwell slow start but the lb and rb should be able to handle better then they did... often to easy passed even when they have back up. so when they do that and offer little forward... not good.
 
In theory... But then you lose width in attack when fatigue sets in. Not to mention the problem of keeping the fullbacks fit for an entire season.

I think the club needs to bite the bullet and acquire a promising, young CH on loan and pay over the odds this month for a legitimate CH.

At the very least, if Rodwell is a complete failure at CM, see if he can still play CH since improving on Coates's performance from this match is a low hurdle to cross.

Maybe worth trying it. Coates is abysmal and is value for the bench only. Hopefully cash gets spent in the next couple of weeks.
 
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