The Russians have done another in



yyy said:
Yes @dangermows and @George Kaplan, if the whole process had been handled as I suggest, many untruths would have been more greatly tested. Also, negotiations prior to the referendum would have shown the difficulties of leaving the EU (and consequences) and made people think much more about their votes.

This would have made the people who'd decided their vote irrespective of what either campaign said also take a longer look at the issue.

Not so silly, am I? ;)
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No no, I agree with you. Basically those who voted leave are idiots.
 
yyy said:
Not when you think it through, as a Brexit deal could have been negotiated before the referendum was held.

Come referendum day, we could have had three options:

1) Stay in the EU;
2) Take the deal;
3) Leave without the deal.

If the position had been pre-negotiated, we could have been in a position to have the deal or our departure in place literally days, at most weeks, after the vote was taken.

Now we have some people calling for a second referendum to offer these precise options, a referendum most people have no appetite for. We're in a situation that just seems to be dragging on, doing neither side any favours and creating an atmosphere of uncertainty.

Translated, we'd have known what Brexit meant.
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Our legally binding arrangement with 27 other countries prevents us from negotiating terms for a deal until after article 50 is enacted. I can’t understand how you could have missed that almost daily reported on every news channel. So we spend millions and allocate armies of civil servants and diplomats (or whatever) to negotiate a deal - a deal that we can’t even negotiate now, when everybody know we’re leaving - an we do that BEFORE a referendum that will determine whether the deal is enacted or not and you think that the 27 other countries will offer an attractive proposition to us - or even engage AT ALL! ? Even if it was legal to do so?

Have a think.

I thought I lacked understanding but I realise I’m a relative font of knowledge and wisdom. I don’t want to rude but... I mean REALLY? Really?
 
ProfessionalMackem said:
Yet you and your ilk gobble up anything 'our' propaganda machine pumps out, no questions asked, no evidence provided. 'Yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir'.



That'll be the tip of the iceberg marra. Just wait until the security services get their hands out over this 'false flag'.
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You are absolutely the worst culprit for believing any old shite with the aggravating factor that it's usually from already discredited sources. Dont confuse scepticism with paranoia. We have a thorough regulatory system for our government via select committees and public access to information. But you'd prefer to dismiss any explanation of what occurred out of hand, stick your fingers in your ears and cry that it's all a conspiracy before any details are released. It's smacks of insecurity and paranoia not to mention being quite an immature attitude.
 
George Kaplan said:
Our legally binding arrangement with 27 other countries prevents us from negotiating terms for a deal until after article 50 is enacted. I can’t understand how you could have missed that almost daily reported on every news channel. So we spend millions and allocate armies of civil servants and diplomats (or whatever) to negotiate a deal - a deal that we can’t even negotiate now, when everybody know we’re leaving - an we do that BEFORE a referendum that will determine whether the deal is enacted or not and you think that the 27 other countries will offer an attractive proposition to us - or even engage AT ALL! ? Even if it was legal to do so?

Have a think.

I thought I lacked understanding but I realise I’m a relative font of knowledge and wisdom. I don’t want to rude but... I mean REALLY? Really?
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So if we couldn't negotiate, what on earth was David Cameron doing to water down eu citizen benefit rights prior to the referendum?

I'm sorry, but I can't see how we couldn't have negotiated beforehand. Practically speaking, to stick to the letter of the treaty and refuse to talk to us would only encourage a Brexit scenario, which were now in.

The EU budget is having to be curtailed due to our withdrawal.
 
yyy said:
So if we couldn't negotiate, what on earth was David Cameron doing to water down eu citizen benefit rights prior to the referendum?

I'm sorry, but I can't see how we couldn't have negotiated beforehand. Practically speaking, to stick to the letter of the treaty and refuse to talk to us would only encourage a Brexit scenario, which were now in.

The EU budget is having to be curtailed due to our withdrawal.
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Put bluntly, the government underestimated the stupidity of the nation.
 
ProfessionalMackem said:
Yet you and your ilk gobble up anything 'our' propaganda machine pumps out, no questions asked, no evidence provided. 'Yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir'.



That'll be the tip of the iceberg marra. Just wait until the security services get their hands out over this 'false flag'.
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You’ll believe any old shite though as long as it’s against “the man”.

We’re probably both being lied to, in fact I’d say we’re definitely both being lied to. Except ones of us follows Occam’s Razor and the other doesn’t.
 
yyy said:
So if we couldn't negotiate, what on earth was David Cameron doing to water down eu citizen benefit rights prior to the referendum?

I'm sorry, but I can't see how we couldn't have negotiated beforehand. Practically speaking, to stick to the letter of the treaty and refuse to talk to us would only encourage a Brexit scenario, which were now in.

The EU budget is having to be curtailed due to our withdrawal.
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You really need to read up on this before you comment further. So do I probably. But Cameron wasn't negotiating anything about arrangements after withdrawal. If anything he was trying to gain concessions to enable a positive referendum result. And the EU told him, basically, to fuck off. So if he'd said "look, let's negotiate a whole load of stuff so we'll be in a great position after a referendum to just leave without any fuss" what do reckon the rest of the EU would have said? "Lets negotiate a fantastic deal for the UK so that everybody will vote leave?" or "Let's tell the fucker to do one, then people are more likely to vote remain because of the uncertainty?" And I state again; the current negotiations will take years. And even then, there'll be bits that are changeable and uncertain and not yet agreed and fudged. And you want all that to happen BEFORE a referendum. Just so people can say that they don't want it?

This is utterly ludicrous and I refuse to engage further cos it's hurting my cranium. And I repeat: I voted Remain. And even I can sport the huge, gaping, gargantuan, behemoth-esque holes in your ideas
 
George Kaplan said:
You really need to read up on this before you comment further. So do I probably. But Cameron wasn't negotiating anything about arrangements after withdrawal. If anything he was trying to gain concessions to enable a positive referendum result. And the EU told him, basically, to fuck off. So if he'd said "look, let's negotiate a whole load of stuff so we'll be in a great position after a referendum to just leave without any fuss" what do reckon the rest of the EU would have said? "Lets negotiate a fantastic deal for the UK so that everybody will vote leave?" or "Let's tell the fucker to do one, then people are more likely to vote remain because of the uncertainty?" And I state again; the current negotiations will take years. And even then, there'll be bits that are changeable and uncertain and not yet agreed and fudged. And you want all that to happen BEFORE a referendum. Just so people can say that they don't want it?

This is utterly ludicrous and I refuse to engage further cos it's hurting my cranium. And I repeat: I voted Remain. And even I can sport the huge, gaping, gargantuan, behemoth-esque holes in your ideas
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I know Cameron was only trying to negotiate concessions in order to obtain a Remain result in the referendum, but in doing so, he came across as unbelievably week.

I'm sorry, button can we not ignore aspects overtaking treaties, but other countries get away with murder.

Cameron needed to be more forceful and say "I don't want Britain to leave, but there are major problems in the UK, especially with opinion on immigration. Give us an opt out on Freedom of Movement or one of your major net contributors is likely to vote come referendum day to leave.

If Russia, USA and others can disregard treaties, why do we always have to be the good guys?
 
Putin will do nothing at all.

For all his bravado, and he is untouchable at home, he knows its a zero sum game. He is not going to take on the West because there are no winners in that. And its another one where arguably having the unpredictable Trump in the White House might check him a little. He has bullied Europe for years and runs rings around us. But essentially he knows the line. Any views (Unless he is a madman as opposed to shrewd operator) that he will go too far are unrealistic. He cant take on the West just as we cant take him on. Its all posturing within a middle battle ground
 
cornish mackem said:
Or Druid st or Spoons


I kind of agree but the colateral damage to joe public needs sorting out.
A copper and hundreds or people on one Sunday afternoon could be damaged and that could be just the tip of the iceberg.
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The first is a bit close for comfort ... the second? Well. it's Uncle Len we need to watch out for ........
 

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