The "real" reason Reid should be sacked

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

Hetzkes Ballet Teacher

Guest
the sleeping giant said:
In the meantime, my lasting wish is that SAFC fans get behind anyone who wears the red and white stripes for the full 90 minutes.
On that we are totally agreed. And I've already registered a new name just in case our season turns to total shit :lol:
 
H

Hetzkes Ballet Teacher

Guest
Martian said:
This old Pro/Anti-Reid chestnut

For starters the 11000 fans missing from the SOL on saturday are hardly pro-reid either are they?
I know three people who didnt renew, none of them are anti-Reid. They basically thought they'd wait until the team started performing again before shelling out more hard earned squids on them. That may or may not go along with replacing Reid, but it isn't a primary factor for them.

I'd imagine that quite a few of the "missing" 11000 are in a similar position - I wouldn't just assume that you can call them all Reid-outs. Of course I could also point out that the SOL will be full next weekend so there musn't be any extra Reid-outs for you to count after all (thought I won't as its just as crap an argument as yours).

Final thought - maybe the 11000 are all bound and gagged in ALS Towers??? :eek:
 

smoker

Striker
I fear this thread has gone off on a tangent and turned into a bog-standard Reid-in Reid-out who can shout louder competition. :lol:

My point of posting these stats is not to state the obvious - ie last season was crap. Otherwise, why post the comparison with Smith, Robbo and Gullit? The point was to i) draw a factual comparison between Reid and other managers commonly regarded by SAFC fans as a load of crap and ii) encourage pro-Reid people to question why these managers deserved to be sacked and Reid doesn't. I also tried to attack the myth that Murray is somehow short-changing Reid and is therefore a viable scapegoat for failures on the football side.

As I said to Boi you can't just write off last season like accidentally stepping in a dog shit. Poor results don't happen by bad luck alone, they are the consequence of management decisions. Even if you are prepared to give Reid more time (a sentimental, not a business decision IMHO), you should not forget last season's lesson in the consequences of Reid's dodgy management decisions 99-01. If you choose to forget the lesson and sit by deferentially with your fingers crossed as Reid repeats the same mistakes we are heading for trouble.

Someone casually dismissed the facts by saying, if you went far enough back you could make Reid look glowing. Well, if you go back far enough Walter Smith was winning every trophy in sight with Rangers, Gullit was winning silverware at Chelsea and Bryan Robson had Boro in two cup finals. Makes Reid's two 7th places look pathetic.

For a long time, the pro-Reids have whinged on about us "anti-Reids" (I prefer to term us "experienced pragmatists" :wink: ) not providing facts to back up our beliefs. Now I have got off my arse and found them...and they don't like it up 'em Cap'n Mainwaring! :wink:
 
M

Martian

Guest
Hetzkes Ballet Teacher said:
Martian said:
Hetzes,

Your a stubborn bugger, i'll give you that.

Reply to some of your points:

-Four seasons in the Premier League, I thank Mr Reid for getting us there, I think his greatest achievement was in his first season at the club on a shoestring budget. However of those 4 seasons in the Premier League, two were spent in a relegation battle

You cant really count the Roker Park one - it would have been a miracle if we had stayed up. However we then had a couple of great seasons in Div 1 (which I enjoyed as much as any in the PL/Div1, BTW) followed by a couple of successful seasons in the PL, followed by one poor season. Note how few words there are in that last bit compared to the rest.

and this season has all the hallmarks of another one.

You can work that out after just two games (both fairly reasonable performances BTW) ? You should be on the telly.

-Peter Reid has spent more money than every previous Sunderland Manager combined in the history of the club. That is why he has done better than most Managers. I believe Dennis Smith, if he was given Peter reid's budget would been able to achieve more.

Rubbish. As you well know, the base "cost of living" in the PL is way, way, way (x 10) higher than any other league in which an SAFC manager has managed SAFC in absolute terms (as is the income), so that statement is utterly meaningless.


-Peter Reid has proven his preference for the long ball game, it has been in evidence for years. We will never pass and move under peter Reid it is not his Philosophy and he does not have the know how to implement it. We played some good football in the first division, I agree, but then so did West Brom last season. The Premier League is a different ball game.

You even contradict yourself! We played some great football in Div 1, under...who??. We murdered Chelsea at home in the PL - how many long balls did you see in that game? PR likes the option of a tall centre forward for crosses, but this is not the long ball game. We have lapsed into the latter from time to time because "our passing game" (how many times have you heard PR mention that - I stopped counting at around 30) wasn't working. If you'd said "he tried to get a passing game going but it didn't work" I'd have agreed with you, but to simply call him a one trick pony where the trick is a long punt upfield by design, sorry but no.

-As for the current squad I would say we have 5 Premiership quality players and the rest are Nationwide League standard.

Well luckily enough for us, all but the top 5-6 have too. Must say a lot about the quality of the NW league, if so many international players have that quality.

-As for short memories, well how long can you carry on using that argument? Football moves on very quickly it waits for nobody, if you live in the past you become found out, which is what has happened to us recently. Seven and a half years is a long time in football management and the game has completely changed in that time. It is time for people to realise that Reid has done his job and the club needs to move forward with fresh Management.

For as long as it is relevant. The rest ofthat para is just pure waffle - "football waits for nobody" - what are you, the Poet Laureate ??? Its been essentially the same game for over a century, in which time entire industries have come and gone.

If it is time for people to realise anything, its that they should ignore propaganda and meaningless "its time for change" type arguments (always a poor substitute for rational and substantive argument) and sit and look at where we came from, what we are now, what is happening to the industry around us, and where we can realistically expect to go, and whether the performance of our most recent management over its tenure justifies them having a crack at it.
Jesus, you accuse me of waffling, I really don't have the stamina to reply in total, but I will say your argument is fragile at best. I am confident the vast majority will sit on my side of the fence on this one and you know it. :wink:
 
Smoker, don't know if you read the stats I posted yesterday, but here they are again. As others, notably Laputian, pointed out, you have to bear in mind that all, bar Ashurst, were managing at a lower level, but the records of all of his predecessors were better or as good as Reid's recent record, yet they were all sacked.

Mick Buxton
P W D L F A
68 23 21 24 72 70
Reid's last 68 matches
P W D L F A
68 22 19 27 77 82

Terry Butcher
P W D L F A
38 10 7 21 38 53
Reid's last 38 matches
P W D L F A
38 9 11 18 28 50

Malcolm Crosby
P W D L F A
46 14 12 20 56 66
Reid's last 46 matches
P W D L F A
46 12 13 21 38 61

Lawrie McMenemy
P W D L F A
77 23 21 33 86 109
Reid's last 77 matches
P W D L F A
77 24 23 30 74 93

Len Ashurst
P W D L F A
55 15 13 27 52 74
Reid's last 55 matches
P W D L F A
55 13 17 25 44 71

How much more time should he be given?
 
H

Hetzkes Ballet Teacher

Guest
smoker said:
I fear this thread has gone off on a tangent and turned into a bog-standard Reid-in Reid-out who can shout louder competition. :lol:

Yeah thats what usually happens, and why its so tedious. I kept my own mouth shut until I saw some things that were just plain insulting to moderate fans and/or stupid.

My point of posting these stats is not to state the obvious - ie last season was crap. Otherwise, why post the comparison with Smith, Robbo and Gullit?

Duh...you're not just saying it was crap, but here's an equivalent comparison with three others that were crap ?? I must be missing something!

Robbo deserved to go because he spent a bleedin fortune (by anyone's standards), got little back for it, and his team were heading down.

Gullit hadn't saved his club from extinction, got some decent players in, made them play the best football that many fans had seen in their lifetimes (before the crap spell).

But you must KNOW all this, which is what is getting my back up here!


I also tried to attack the myth that Murray is somehow short-changing Reid and is therefore a viable scapegoat for failures on the football side.

That I did find useful - ta!

Well, if you go back far enough Walter Smith was winning every trophy in sight with Rangers, Gullit was winning silverware at Chelsea...

Not with the same club, and not based on sound financing.
Bryan Robson had Boro in two cup finals. Makes Reid's two 7th places look pathetic.

Er remind me...how many did they win ? I wouldn't have swapped our Play Off final with the Wheelies for all of their cup final let downs - that was one of the most memorable days of my life. That alone, and the great team spirit and man management by PR afterwards (eg. on Mickey), has bought my patience for a few months.

For a long time, the pro-Reids have whinged on about us "anti-Reids" (I prefer to term us "experienced pragmatists" :wink: ) not providing facts to back up our beliefs. Now I have got off my arse and found them...and they don't like it up 'em Cap'n Mainwaring!

But you didn't have to (it is already an accepted FACT that the last season and a bit was crap) and the concept is flawed anyway as noted above. Therefore it looks like just another shit throwing session, therefore people's backs get up.

And...one more time for good luck...many of us are not Pro Reid, we're just not in favour of changing the management at this time (Pro-club or Reid-neutral might be better terms, until some success is acheived).

 

smoker

Striker
HBT said:
Robbo deserved to go because he spent a bleedin fortune (by anyone's standards), got little back for it, and his team were heading down.
As I stated elsewhere in this thread, Robson spent 24 million net on Boro compared to Reid's 32 million net on Sunderland in one more season. Could it not equally be argued that Reid "spent a bleedin fortune (by anyone's standards), got little back for it, and his team were heading down"? (NB Robson's last full season Boro finished 12th not 17th)

HBT said:
But you didn't have to (it is already an accepted FACT that the last season and a bit was crap) and the concept is flawed anyway as noted above. Therefore it looks like just another shit throwing session, therefore people's backs get up.
That's not what I'm doing tho. Again, the point of my thread was not to re-emphasise that last season was crap. Rather it was to put it - or rather Reid into context of managers generally accepted to be a load of crap and deserving of the sack. If that has been done before, I apologise, but I doubt it. Your comments about Robbo above just emphasise my point, cos they don't withstand scrutiny.

The only concept I am introducing is Reid deserves to be sacked by factual comparison with his peers. If this is unfair ("shit throwing"), why did Peter Reid contrive to make the facts such as to make this interpretation so inevitable? Can you produce facts for managers with a worse record that weren't sacked?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hetzkes Ballet Teacher said:
smoker said:
I fear this thread has gone off on a tangent and turned into a bog-standard Reid-in Reid-out who can shout louder competition. :lol:

Yeah thats what usually happens, and why its so tedious. I kept my own mouth shut until I saw some things that were just plain insulting to moderate fans and/or stupid.

My point of posting these stats is not to state the obvious - ie last season was crap. Otherwise, why post the comparison with Smith, Robbo and Gullit?

Duh...you're not just saying it was crap, but here's an equivalent comparison with three others that were crap ?? I must be missing something!

Robbo deserved to go because he spent a bleedin fortune (by anyone's standards), got little back for it, and his team were heading down.

Gullit hadn't saved his club from extinction, got some decent players in, made them play the best football that many fans had seen in their lifetimes (before the crap spell).

But you must KNOW all this, which is what is getting my back up here!


I also tried to attack the myth that Murray is somehow short-changing Reid and is therefore a viable scapegoat for failures on the football side.

That I did find useful - ta!

Well, if you go back far enough Walter Smith was winning every trophy in sight with Rangers, Gullit was winning silverware at Chelsea...

Not with the same club, and not based on sound financing.
Bryan Robson had Boro in two cup finals. Makes Reid's two 7th places look pathetic.

Er remind me...how many did they win ? I wouldn't have swapped our Play Off final with the Wheelies for all of their cup final let downs - that was one of the most memorable days of my life. That alone, and the great team spirit and man management by PR afterwards (eg. on Mickey), has bought my patience for a few months.

For a long time, the pro-Reids have whinged on about us "anti-Reids" (I prefer to term us "experienced pragmatists" :wink: ) not providing facts to back up our beliefs. Now I have got off my arse and found them...and they don't like it up 'em Cap'n Mainwaring!

But you didn't have to (it is already an accepted FACT that the last season and a bit was crap) and the concept is flawed anyway as noted above. Therefore it looks like just another shit throwing session, therefore people's backs get up.

And...one more time for good luck...many of us are not Pro Reid, we're just not in favour of changing the management at this time (Pro-club or Reid-neutral might be better terms, until some success is acheived).

Bollocks. Every word of this reply is complete bollocks. Sorry, but it is.
 

smoker

Striker
Kevin Arnott's right boot said:
Smoker, don't know if you read the stats I posted yesterday, but here they are again. As others, notably Laputian, pointed out, you have to bear in mind that all, bar Ashurst, were managing at a lower level, but the records of all of his predecessors were better or as good as Reid's recent record, yet they were all sacked.

Mick Buxton
P W D L F A
68 23 21 24 72 70
Reid's last 68 matches
P W D L F A
68 22 19 27 77 82

Terry Butcher
P W D L F A
38 10 7 21 38 53
Reid's last 38 matches
P W D L F A
38 9 11 18 28 50

Malcolm Crosby
P W D L F A
46 14 12 20 56 66
Reid's last 46 matches
P W D L F A
46 12 13 21 38 61

Lawrie McMenemy
P W D L F A
77 23 21 33 86 109
Reid's last 77 matches
P W D L F A
77 24 23 30 74 93

Len Ashurst
P W D L F A
55 15 13 27 52 74
Reid's last 55 matches
P W D L F A
55 13 17 25 44 71

How much more time should he be given?
Fascinating stuff mate. Also worth pointing out to Laputian they received a fraction of the money Reid did.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
smoker said:
Fascinating stuff mate. Also worth pointing out to Laputian they received a fraction of the money Reid did.
Aye but it's all relative. My first ever wage packet was £9.21 for a 40 hour week. The "Big Issue" lad wouldn't turn out for that these days.

:wink:
 

Stir

Midfield
I think the transfer dealing cannot be compared across different eras. The only conclusion that can be drawn from the Reid figures is that he hasn't be cash strapped and has spent as much as others in the Premiership.

The feeling that Murray has not given him money, and that it is Murray's fault has been put to bed.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
So let's compare Reid with Reid. Last season was bad, so was the relegation season. Question for the "Reid out group": Do you feel that he was able to turn things around after the relegation? If yes, why should he not be able to do it again?
 
Boi said:
So let's compare Reid with Reid. Last season was bad, so was the relegation season. Question for the "Reid out group": Do you feel that he was able to turn things around after the relegation? If yes, why should he not be able to do it again?
1. It will be a lot harder in the prem
2. If we go down the financial situation will mean it will be far more difficult to turn it round than last time.
 

smoker

Striker
Boi said:
So let's compare Reid with Reid. Last season was bad, so was the relegation season. Question for the "Reid out group": Do you feel that he was able to turn things around after the relegation? If yes, why should he not be able to do it again?
because that was the first division not the premier?
 

GK

Striker
smoker said:
Boi said:
So let's compare Reid with Reid. Last season was bad, so was the relegation season. Question for the "Reid out group": Do you feel that he was able to turn things around after the relegation? If yes, why should he not be able to do it again?
because that was the first division not the premier?
So if you acknowledge that there is a difference between the two leagues, and hence we should have different levels of expectations on performance, all comparisons that (for example) Kevin Arnotts Right Boot drew between our more recent managers is totally null and void.

Quality thread and post all the same smoker. Excellent stuff.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
because that was the first division not the premier?
So presumably he has also more money and experience now. Along with a stronger squad.
 

Stir

Midfield
Boi said:
because that was the first division not the premier?
So presumably he has also more money and experience now. Along with a stronger squad.
if he has a stronger squad they won't go down, if he hasn't got a stronger squad then it's his own fault

I absolutely agree that Reid would be the most qualified person to be Sunderland manager if they needed promotion. He would also, if successful, then be the most qualified person NOT to be Sunderland manager in the Premiership as he would have showed he had vast experience of getting htem relegated.

So, sack him now, if the tam get releagted then reemploy him
 
M

Martian

Guest
Boi said:
because that was the first division not the premier?
So presumably he has also more money and experience now. Along with a stronger squad.
I think the current squad is as weak as it has been in at least 4 years.

In Division 1 we had achoice of Phillips, a fit Quinn, Bridges or Dichio

Now we just have Phillips who is 3 years older than he was then.
 
H

Hetzkes Ballet Teacher

Guest
Martian said:
Boi said:
because that was the first division not the premier?
So presumably he has also more money and experience now. Along with a stronger squad.
I think the current squad is as weak as it has been in at least 4 years.

In Division 1 we had achoice of Phillips, a fit Quinn, Bridges or Dichio

Now we just have Phillips who is 3 years older than he was then.
Dichio - dont make me laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Phillips is 3 years worth a better player, and thats obvious. Don't think he's due a free bus pass just yet. You forget Kyle/Proctor/Beliion who look, at the very least, prospects - one of them is bound to show up well, and that the club is trying to sign one or more strikers.

You're clutching at straws now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top