The happy clappers have had their time


I think the “not accepting mediocrity” argument is fine, we should always demand more

At the same time, being bought out by Saudi Arabia to win the league cup isn’t something that excites me

See, I never mentioned them. I’ve been fairly consistent with my point of view (I think) and its others who have brought them up.

My timing might be off I accept, but personally I think it’s a long time coming that our fans actually got together and said “no, this isn’t good enough”.

We were a PL team, or first division, for a long time. We got to 1 cup final and that was enough for us. It was certainly enough for me. Where we are now, however, isn’t.
 
I never put a single flag out until 2022. I believe Cambridge was the first game I was involved but I may be wrong.

KLD acquired sunderland on 18/2/21.

For your next lie?
You're speaking like there's a list of billionaires queuing up to buy the club. There isn't. You're also assuming that everyone is happy with the level of ambition and the position of the club. There isn't one Sunderland fan who doesn't want us to be successful.
 
I'm talking about you saying some fans have gave up...the players certainly look like they have. Like Roberts said, it was unacceptable. It's hard to keep the faith when you see players pulling out of 50/50's like yesterday. Roberts pulled out of 2 or 3. We need our beginning of the season attitude and workrate to reappear if we are going to do anything mate.
It goes without saying yesterday was crap and rubbish and we have to get better. It’s premature to say the players have given up on winning the play offs. If anything they’re almost f***ing around waiting for them.
 
What exactly are the club doing wrong that requires pressure on them? They’ve gone from us on our arse to play offs back to the premier league twice in 5 years. I’m not gonna argue they’ve made serious errors off the pitch, which have been done to death. What exactly do yu want doing so differently?
Obscene amounts of money invested into players who are guaranteed to perform and carry us into the PL. Pretty obvious.
 
Thing is. We really could. We're nailed on for play offs. I know we were crap yesterday but I'm.as certain as I can be we would not be as bad again if we met Coventry over 2 games. After that it's a one off game.
I’ve seen enough of the shit Sunderland can serve up in my lifetime to know that we’ve gone on another end of season slump. Our only hope is that we find some kind of way to preserve some energy and to play 3 games the way we did against Sheffield first game of the season. We won’t though.
 
See, I never mentioned them. I’ve been fairly consistent with my point of view (I think) and its others who have brought them up.

My timing might be off I accept, but personally I think it’s a long time coming that our fans actually got together and said “no, this isn’t good enough”.

We were a PL team, or first division, for a long time. We got to 1 cup final and that was enough for us. It was certainly enough for me. Where we are now, however, isn’t.
Fair enough, you didn’t.

I think the reality is that it’s getting better. When we were in league one we had no players of any value. When we got relegated under Moyes it was similar.

Right now, we’ve got players worth a lot, it puts us in better position

Reality is, under PSR you can’t easily buy success, you have to be sustainable ish.

We’re improving. But we make mistakes. That’s football
 
You're speaking like there's a list of billionaires queuing up to buy the club. There isn't. You're also assuming that everyone is happy with the level of ambition and the position of the club. There isn't one Sunderland fan who doesn't want us to be successful.
There’s not one Sunderland fan who thinks this is the end goal to be here and will take this year after year. In light of no list of billionaires wanting to fast track us to the PL (and there’s the FFP risk) then imo this is the best course and opinion shared by many. But if it doesn’t work no one’s position will be safe forever.
 
You're speaking like there's a list of billionaires queuing up to buy the club. There isn't. You're also assuming that everyone is happy with the level of ambition and the position of the club. There isn't one Sunderland fan who doesn't want us to be successful.

Sorry, can I clarify that we’ve moved on from you making shit up and you’d like to carry on the debate?

As you’ll have seen from my previous posts, I’m happy to debate with everyone. There’s a fair number of people on this thread who I regularly disagree with, that I’ll happily debate, but I will say something if they make things up.
 
You're speaking like there's a list of billionaires queuing up to buy the club. There isn't. You're also assuming that everyone is happy with the level of ambition and the position of the club. There isn't one Sunderland fan who doesn't want us to be successful.
Indeed. I also think that one reason why most fans likely wouldn't want to put their name to such a statement would be the personal feeling of responsibility if we fucked it all up! I'm not saying we need to feel negatively about every deal, but we could easily have spent £20m on cannon and Diaz if we were desperate enough to go up (because anything less is unacceptable) and we offered higher wages etc as a result. I doubt I'm alone in being glad we avoided them. I seriously doubt they'd be the difference and would have got us up or even given us a significantly better chance. What deals like that would do is hamstring us from a profitability perspective for future seasons because of the losses you're allowed. We do need to go up, we can't just say "maybe next year" indefinitely, but equally you can't really say "it has to be next year". If we don't go up do we need to protest etc? There's a time and a place for that and I don't think many think we're near it yet
 
I’m one of the very, very few people on here who attempted to do something to help the club.

I organised the south stand display against Sheffield Wednesday in the L1 playoffs.
I pointed out that the club was in the process of redecorating the BCB in black and white ahead of the fa cup tie.
I organised the protest against giving the entire home end to NUFC.

(When I say I, I mean I was part of a small group who did something. I am in no way saying I did it all but it’s quicker to type I than list all the names)
Still not answering my question though.

I did't say "What have you done?", I said "What will you do?"

2 very different things, and apart from having a rant, you've pretty much come up with nowt.
 
Clapped us out of the PL. Clapped us out of the championship.

Clapped a sunderland fan wishing Charlton fans well in 2019. Clapped them after defeats to Lincoln and Luton in the playoffs.

Critical of any fan who dares to say anything against the club. Defended the ownership after KLD was proven to have lied to the fans (those loans been turned into equity yet?)

It’s time for a bit of pressure on the hierarchy. Time for them to see that it’s not acceptable for SAFC to be plying their trade outside of the PL, and their loyal and numerous fans will not accept anything else.

This doesn’t mean change of manager, change of ownership or change of the overall business plan.

It means that our longest spell outside of the PL in history, or hoping to “find form” going into a playoff campaign, isn’t young to be accepted as acceptable.

6 times champions of England, 2 time FA cup winners, 10th in the overall top flight table, let’s start acting like it. Owners, directors, coaches, players & fans. What we’re currently seeing isn’t good enough and it’s incumbent on us all to sort the fucker out.
Fuck off
 
Fair enough, you didn’t.

I think the reality is that it’s getting better. When we were in league one we had no players of any value. When we got relegated under Moyes it was similar.

Right now, we’ve got players worth a lot, it puts us in better position

Reality is, under PSR you can’t easily buy success, you have to be sustainable ish.

We’re improving. But we make mistakes. That’s football

I absolutely agree that we’re making progress. Like you say we’ve gone from a squad worth nothing trading for signing on fees to having a squad worth a decent amount of money.

However, I don’t think that’s the barometer of success. If it was, Brighton would win the league every year. It’s all well and good having players who bring money in, but if they don’t bring success (in relative terms) what’s the point.

A hypothetical, but I think fairly realistic possibility - we sell Jobe for £25m this summer. We reinvest it. A few turn out to be duds, a couple turn out to be prospects, 1 is ready for the first team. We have a good run, the players get tired and we lose in the playoffs again. Next summer we sell Rigg, we reinvest it…

You can see where I’m going. Yes the club will be making money. Yes the club looks like a place to develop player. But when do we make the step up?

At some point the club has to say “okay we’re going for it now”.
 
I honestly don’t want the club to fail and I don’t come on here to be negative. Yes I may vent more on here and spend more time in the rabbit after a victory but that’s just the mood of a football fan.

I want Sunderland in the top flight and I won’t rest until we’re back there. What me not resting will achieve I’ve not the foggiest but hand on heart I just want success for our club.
Like I said last time, good honest post. Maybe my slightly different opinion is born from hating the premier league and what it’s become, even though in theory I want SAFC to win every match and therefore end up there by default. We’ve been poor recently but it’s miles better than it was so I’m just enjoying the journey for now (most of it).
 
Still not answering my question though.

I did't say "What have you done?", I said "What will you do?"

2 very different things, and apart from having a rant, you've pretty much come up with nowt.

You asked what I’d do. I’ve shown you what I’d do. It won’t be the end of what I’d do, but it’s what I’d do.

Actual pressure on the ownership group.
 
I think the “not accepting mediocrity” argument is fine, we should always demand more

At the same time, being bought out by Saudi Arabia to win the league cup isn’t something that excites me
My point as well. And it has nowt to do with the skunks being bought by them. Any state ownership is a sad state of affairs.
 
I appreciate you taking the time to write such a detailed reply but I’m not as financially competent as you.

From the average fans point of view, I believe most think that the final parachute payment of £25m was transferred to short, and Short wrote off the remaining £13m in debt, leaving us debt free but with no parachute payments.

Is that correct? If not, please explain like I’m a 5 year old (as some on here think I am)

Nope, The £25m ended up with SBC. The £13m Short kept was payment for the shares in Sunderland. Donald chose to treat the £25m as an additional investment cost to Madrox, because that effective "loan" from the club to Madrox created accounting difficulties that couldn't be easily resolved (all down to double-entry bookkeeping. The payment for the shares was actually made by Donald and Sartori (the infamous £1 was what Sartori paid Donald for his shares in Madrox, not Sunderland). He put £3m into Madrox as a loan to cover his share of the Sunderland shares. The accounts for that season make it clear that the whole parachute payment was treated as income by the club; after that it was cash flow, £25m to Short, and £13m spent on the club.
Not all cash going out passes through the profit and loss account.

For what it's worth the way it was done would even confuse many accountants. I only worked it out when I stumbled on the charges over the Hilton. After that it was just a matter of tieing cash movements and charges together.
 
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Indeed. I also think that one reason why most fans likely wouldn't want to put their name to such a statement would be the personal feeling of responsibility if we fucked it all up! I'm not saying we need to feel negatively about every deal, but we could easily have spent £20m on cannon and Diaz if we were desperate enough to go up (because anything less is unacceptable) and we offered higher wages etc as a result. I doubt I'm alone in being glad we avoided them. I seriously doubt they'd be the difference and would have got us up or even given us a significantly better chance. What deals like that would do is hamstring us from a profitability perspective for future seasons because of the losses you're allowed. We do need to go up, we can't just say "maybe next year" indefinitely, but equally you can't really say "it has to be next year". If we don't go up do we need to protest etc? There's a time and a place for that and I don't think many think we're near it yet

When does the “we can’t say it has to be next year” turn into “it has to be next year”?

Is that a decision taken by the RAWA board member, is it taken when the fans write to RAWA and say “you know what, we’ve had enough being outside the PL” or is it when the club decide?
 
Like I said last time, good honest post. Maybe my slightly different opinion is born from hating the premier league and what it’s become, even though in theory I want SAFC to win every match and therefore end up there by default. We’ve been poor recently but it’s miles better than it was so I’m just enjoying the journey for now (most of it).

I see your point, but I refuse to accept that “better than it used to be” as an excuse for where we are now.

If someone said to you when we finished 10th in the PL that one day we’d use languishing in league one as justification for getting knocked out of the championship playoffs as an excuse, what would you say?
 

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