The devil next door

Malloy said:
I kept on switching from "god he evil" to "wrong man"
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That's kind of how I felt about it.

I get that the witnesses were adamant it was him but, let's be honest, it was a show trial, and they were hardly likely to put people on the stand who were going to say they weren't sure it was him. (I couldn't honestly say I would recognise someone I went to school who I'd never seen for 35 years - different circumstance, admittedly.) Can't understand why the defence didn't try that, though - maybe they couldn't find anyone willing to do it. Maybe they were worried they'd get the same kind of vilification the defence lawyer got.

Other things didn't quite gel as well - the prosecution lawyer stating that the SS blood group tattoo was only given to camp guards, or the branch of the SS that oversaw the camps, is just wrong - it was mainly given to waffen-SS members, the fighting arm, to assist medics dealing with battlefield injuries. Even then, a lot of SS soldiers didn't have it (the likes of Mengele apparently didn't have one), and as the war went on, it became almost voluntary.

Like I've said - I have no doubt he was in the Ukrainian SS, and their reputation for cruelty was beyond that of even the German SS. I just don't think it was proved beyond a shadow of doubt that he was actually 'Ivan the Terrible'.
 


Jap Stammer said:
That's kind of how I felt about it.

I get that the witnesses were adamant it was him but, let's be honest, it was a show trial, and they were hardly likely to put people on the stand who were going to say they weren't sure it was him. (I couldn't honestly say I would recognise someone I went to school who I'd never seen for 35 years - different circumstance, admittedly.) Can't understand why the defence didn't try that, though - maybe they couldn't find anyone willing to do it. Maybe they were worried they'd get the same kind of vilification the defence lawyer got.

Other things didn't quite gel as well - the prosecution lawyer stating that the SS blood group tattoo was only given to camp guards, or the branch of the SS that oversaw the camps, is just wrong - it was mainly given to waffen-SS members, the fighting arm, to assist medics dealing with battlefield injuries. Even then, a lot of SS soldiers didn't have it (the likes of Mengele apparently didn't have one), and as the war went on, it became almost voluntary.

Like I've said - I have no doubt he was in the Ukrainian SS, and their reputation for cruelty was beyond that of even the German SS. I just don't think it was proved beyond a shadow of doubt that he was actually 'Ivan the Terrible'.
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They guys mothers maiden name was the same as Ivan the terrible he used that name on some documents when he was leaving then changed his name to what it’s is now how can that be by chance Ivan the terrible had the same maiden name as his mother he’s obv been messing around with the names
 
Jap Stammer said:
That's kind of how I felt about it.

I get that the witnesses were adamant it was him but, let's be honest, it was a show trial, and they were hardly likely to put people on the stand who were going to say they weren't sure it was him. (I couldn't honestly say I would recognise someone I went to school who I'd never seen for 35 years - different circumstance, admittedly.) Can't understand why the defence didn't try that, though - maybe they couldn't find anyone willing to do it. Maybe they were worried they'd get the same kind of vilification the defence lawyer got.

Other things didn't quite gel as well - the prosecution lawyer stating that the SS blood group tattoo was only given to camp guards, or the branch of the SS that oversaw the camps, is just wrong - it was mainly given to waffen-SS members, the fighting arm, to assist medics dealing with battlefield injuries. Even then, a lot of SS soldiers didn't have it (the likes of Mengele apparently didn't have one), and as the war went on, it became almost voluntary.

Like I've said - I have no doubt he was in the Ukrainian SS, and their reputation for cruelty was beyond that of even the German SS. I just don't think it was proved beyond a shadow of doubt that he was actually 'Ivan the Terrible'.
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I wondered as it developed obviously, but eventually I was 100% convinced it was him like. Him laughing at the survivors, I mean that genuinely could have been a nervous reaction to the scale of the charges he was facing, but then his reaction after initially laughing where he'd gesture confidently through his expressions that they were talking absolute nonsense made me look beyond that.

Then the way he treat that one bloke who insisted on looking into his eyes, demeaning him by offering to shake his hand and then again laughing at him.

Also there was a moment when he was asked a question, I can't remember the exact question but it had something to do with him being at Sobibor, his answer to deny it was over confident, like the kind of answer you give when you know you're lying, everyone knows you're lying but you know absolutely no-one can prove it, and then his smugness after delivering it....

Whatever you believe it really does make you think, whether he was Ivan the terrible or not the fact is that bloke actually existed and subjected people to the things they say he did. Was he born evil, or did circumstances alone mould him into that monster? Probably a bit of both. Personally I believe that John Demjanjuk was Ivan, and after watching I felt pretty gutted for the survivors that they didn't get the justice they sought after what they were subjected to.
 
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Whitburnmakem said:
They guys mothers maiden name was the same as Ivan the terrible he used that name on some documents when he was leaving then changed his name to what it’s is now how can that be by chance Ivan the terrible had the same maiden name as his mother he’s obv been messing around with the names
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Didn't they have a picture of the bloke using the mother's maiden name that looked nothing like Demjanjuk - different colour eyes etc? Can't remember for sure now.

It's enough for me that he was in the Ukrainian SS - that's good enough to jail him for life as far as I'm concerned as I consider them worse than the German ones who were indoctrinated from an early age. The 'foreign' SS battalions were volunteers, which makes them far worse in my opinion. But to sentence someone to death you've got to be 100% sure otherwise you're no better than the very people you're prosecuting, and I don't think they proved it 100%.
 
I felt the way his grandson was talking at the end saying people done want they had to do to survive sounded like the family knew at the end aswell maybe he told them
It’s hard for me to get my head around it was only 35-40 years before I was born people were doing these things to each other,it amazes me how much the world has evolved and changed for the better in such a short period of time. Another 40 years forward and who knows !!!
 
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Whitburnmakem said:
I felt the way his grandson was talking at the end saying people done want they had to do to survive sounded like the family knew at the end aswell maybe he told them
It’s hard for me to get my head around it was only 35-40 years before I was born people were doing these things to each other,it amazes me how much the world has evolved and changed for the better in such a short period of time. Another 40 years forward and who knows !!!
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People still do this mate. Most of Africa witnesses ethnic cleansing regularly. Obviously not on the scale of ww2.
 
Whitburnmakem said:
I felt the way his grandson was talking at the end saying people done want they had to do to survive sounded like the family knew at the end aswell maybe he told them
It’s hard for me to get my head around it was only 35-40 years before I was born people were doing these things to each other,it amazes me how much the world has evolved and changed for the better in such a short period of time. Another 40 years forward and who knows !!!
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Time hasn't solved it and imo it never will, it just hasn't happened in our part of Europe in most people's lifetime.
 
The way he was having to be carried in/wheeled about in and out of court reminded me of that David charlton character from the strangeways prison documentary.
 
I thought he was innocent, or at least not enough evidence, all the way upto the reveal that the surname used was the same as his mother's.

Think it speaks well of the Israeli high court (or whatever they are called) to overturn the verdict, nobody could have blamed them if they'd made the easy decision.
 
scott934 said:
I think it might be edited that way like, shows him laughing after blokes are saying horrific things. Surely he'd not be daft enough to incriminate himself that easily.
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Faced with the death penalty, hearing the things he was accused of you could forgive him for the laughter based on his nerves at the sheer scale of it all. For me though it was his reaction after the laughter, he was sitting as smug as fuck. Basically knew they couldn't prove beyond any doubt that it was him.
 

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