Discussion in 'SMB' started by The Lambton Worm, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:11 AM.
I am big enough to make my own statements, however I don't fancy a ban
You're right, the machine can't function. The machine has many parts though. Not all of those parts can be proven to have been wilfully complicit with genocide.
For all we know, he may have feared for his life had he sought to leave the camp. It might have brought suspicion on him or his family. I don't agree that simply being an SS officer in the camps constitutes a war crime.
If however he
a) knew what was going on (he did)
b) supported the genocide either ideologically or through direct action took the life of another
c) had the opportunity to leave the camp without potentially bringing harm to himself or his family
Then I would be willing to revise my opinion of him. To me he seems like a bloke who joined the SS (who were not a criminal organisation at the time but an elite unit of the German military) but didn't kill anyone for them. Yes, he enabled genocidal activity through being part of the machine to what extent did he enable genocide of his own free will?
That's the question, surely. Rather that than branding him a war criminal outright.
Well if you want to hoy insults about you can PM me, but god knows what I've done to incur such wrath that you'd get a ban
A yes would have sufficed like.
Why at least it narrows it down a bit.
They were completely separate to the German military. They were the Nazi Party’s paramilitary group.
Seriously mate, read up on the SS because with respect I don’t think you quite understand what it was.
Military, paramilitary whatever. I'm not really that concerned with the minutiae of what exactly they were. They were not a criminal organisation when he joined.
Please don't gloss over the rest of the post, because of that small and fairly insignificant detail.
While there is a debate to be had about the morality of the bombing of civilians, and the concept of a 'just war', there is a distinction between those fighting a war for their national survival, as we were, and those involved in a war of conquest, annihilation and genocide.
Wars are dirty, mistakes are made and history often judges certain decisions and actions from a different moral standpoint.
Members of the SS didn't suddenly wake up one morning and realise they'd joined a racist organisation who were actually going to kill a load of innocent people because they were Jews or Slavs (or disabled or homosexual for that matter). That's what master races seem to do.
A cursory flick through Mein Kampf would have given them a clue before Hitler even opened his mouth.
My point is, that Groening was actively involved in murder, way and beyond any limits of acceptable wartime conduct.
I agree that any war criminal should be charged from whatever side they were.
The bookkeeper in a death camp is aware of what is happening and how entirely it is against the Geneva Convention.
Tony Blair I agree.
Churchill for Gallipoli could have been just a massive error as opposed to a crime.
Bomber Harris, no, his superiors maybe.
I’m not glossing over anything.
I’m asking you to learn a bit more about the SS, it’s function and idealogy because you’re basing your argument on the flawed notion that the SS were just another division of the Wehrmacht. They weren’t.
I dare say had the Germans won the war that the Allied bombings would have been designated as war crimes...victors get to write history after all, and the fact that no allies were tried criminally after the war (other than a few courts martial) doesn't sit entirely comfortably to be honest.
From the Oracle (c)
Do you honestly think Allied bombing campaigns and the Holocaust are comparable?
Joining the SS required you to be an ideological Nazi who swore to deliver on Hitler's plan's to subjugate and destroy what were seen as inferior races. Specifically they recognised no international laws against brutality, atrocities or any of the Geneva convention. Execution of captured enemies and civilians was routine. It was very much not like regular army, and even less like a conscript army. He set out specifically to join the SS.
Bloody hell man there's been some stinking comments today like.
I said they were a unit of German military. It’s close enough. You’re branding someone a war criminal based on no evidence he committed any actual genocide.
You completely ignored the rest of the post. Which is why I said glossing.
So that makes him actively a war criminal and genocidal? I don’t buy it, unless there’s proof he actually killed someone and was free to leave Auschwitz at any time without harm to him or his family.
This bit opens up a huge can of worms because the same point could be made that those who actually did the murdering also done so under the threat of harm if they disobeyed.
I think it’s a can of worms worth exploring.
Are you a war criminal if you’re effectively trapped into commiting a war crime?
History is written by the winners, can't judge them by todays moral standards, yada yada yada.
It was a war. What went on afterwards was acts of vengeance not justice.
Do you realize this line was the (unsuccessful) defence of Adolf Eichmann, the actual on the ground organizer of the Holocaust itself, when he was on trial? He claimed he was not liable for any of it because he was merely following orders in a totalitarian system where he had no right to objection...
He never said he was trapped.
He admitted he was part of the process and that he thought it was the right thing to do.
Separate names with a comma.