The bairns homework



Ghost of Bagpuss said:
My 5 year old asked me the other day if I knew what a "split diagraph" was.....He cant yet read.

There is an important issue here and its that kids are having their love of learning destroyed by pointless boring shite that they will never use.....The new curriculum in both primary and secondary is completely absurd and means that kids from a very young age are essentially having to be taught to the test from a very young age.....Stuff that used to be in GCSE's are now being included in year 6 SATS, infact in terms of the way they look at structural English they are learning stuff at 11 that was never included in even A level English.

What used to be in A levels is now GCSE level, the level of work the kids are expected to do is insane which is again meaning that kids from starting year 7 are being drilled drilled and drilled some more in how to pass the tests which are now absolutely solid.

It is extremely sad and far from them increasing their ability they know how to pass specific tests but they struggle to transfer what they use to pass the tests into other areas.....For instance you will often find kids who are able to use extremely complex sentence structures to pass their SATS with a good level at the age of 10 then not using things like basic paragraphs in their standard day to day written work in other subjects.

This is the problem with rote learning, it has been the problem in China for a long long time....The govt aspires to beat the Chinese in the PISA tests but its like comparing chalk with cheese......They test a kids ability to remember shit loads of pointless facts, we have always taught skills which means kids are able to innovate and think through problems.

Our kids being able to remember every king and queen since the beginning of time and be able to remember 30 quotes from Shakespeare to pass their English exam is not education, its just a memory game....In an age where information is pretty much always available on a device in a persons pocket then the skill of remembering shit loads of facts is utterly pointless....

What I want is a kid who knows how to research any topic and critically analyse the information they research...Instead we are abandoning this approach to have kids learning long lists of pointless facts. The education system is going backwards.
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Split digraph - what we used to call "magic e".... cAkE - without the E on the end it would say cak... the e makes the vowel say the "letter name" sound (Ay). Might well not have been covered yet if it's a 5 year old in Reception - my own Reception kid hasn't covered them yet as they go through phonics sounds in phases and it's one of the later phases (pisses me off they keep sending reading books home rammed full of sounds they've not covered yet).

You're right about the curriculum all moving down though. Back when I was teaching we had a big curriculum change where loads of stuff shifted down a year from the year it was previously taught in, and the latest change seems to have done exactly the same again. Looking at the list of end of year expectations on my eldest's school report (and she's in a year group I used to teach so have a fairly clear idea of what's a poor/average/good level for that age group) - they're f***ing bonkers now. She's top of the class easily and isn't going to achieve half of them!

I've only been out of teaching a few years but I've had to brush up on the way the school's teaching maths now because that's all changed (again). I also marked bloody SATs tests for nearly 10 years and still had to google up what the fuck a fronted adverbial was the first time I came across that phrase which is f***ing ridiculous (yet another case of a stupid name being attached to something you already know how to do).
 
RestlessNatives said:
I said 'sat in silence would be preferable'. I'd prefer them to be silent.;)
We can all play this game.
As I said earlier, adverbs have their place however they are overused. The first example you gave was the perfect example of when a better word could be found.
Anyway, Stephen King knows far more about writing than either of us and this is his view.


The adverb is not your friend.

Adverbs … are words that modify verbs, adjectives, or other adverbs. They’re the ones that usually end in -ly. Adverbs, like the passive voice, seem to have been created with the timid writer in mind. … With adverbs, the writer usually tells us he or she is afraid he/she isn’t expressing himself/herself clearly, that he or she is not getting the point or the picture across.

Consider the sentence He closed the door firmly. It’s by no means a terrible sentence (at least it’s got an active verb going for it), but ask yourself if firmly really has to be there. You can argue that it expresses a degree of difference between He closed the door and He slammed the door, and you’ll get no argument from me … but what about context? What about all the enlightening (not to say emotionally moving) prose which came before He closed the door firmly? Shouldn’t this tell us how he closed the door? And if the foregoing prose does tell us, isn’t firmly an extra word? Isn’t it redundant?

Someone out there is now accusing me of being tiresome and anal-retentive. I deny it. I believe the road to hell is paved with adverbs, and I will shout it from the rooftops. To put it another way, they’re like dandelions. If you have one on your lawn, it looks pretty and unique. If you fail to root it out, however, you find five the next day . . . fifty the day after that . . . and then, my brothers and sisters, your lawn is totally, completely, and profligately covered with dandelions. By then you see them for the weeds they really are, but by then it’s — GASP!! — too late.

I can be a good sport about adverbs, though. Yes I can. With one exception: dialogue attribution. I insist that you use the adverb in dialogue attribution only in the rarest and most special of occasions . . . and not even then, if you can avoid it. Just to make sure we all know what we’re talking about, examine these three sentences:

‘Put it down!’ she shouted.
‘Give it back,’ he pleaded, ‘it’s mine.’
‘Don’t be such a fool, Jekyll,’ Utterson said.

In these sentences, shouted, pleaded, and said are verbs of dialogue attribution. Now look at these dubious revisions:

‘Put it down! she shouted menacingly.
‘Give it back,’ he pleaded abjectly, ‘it’s mine.’
‘Don’t be such a fool, Jekyll,’ Utterson said contemptuously.

The three latter sentences are all weaker than the three former ones, and most readers will see why immediately.
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Isn't this style of writing (extra adverbs) exactly why people started kicking off about Dan Brown?

Ghost of Bagpuss said:
My 5 year old asked me the other day if I knew what a "split diagraph" was.....He cant yet read.

There is an important issue here and its that kids are having their love of learning destroyed by pointless boring shite that they will never use.....The new curriculum in both primary and secondary is completely absurd and means that kids from a very young age are essentially having to be taught to the test from a very young age.....Stuff that used to be in GCSE's are now being included in year 6 SATS, infact in terms of the way they look at structural English they are learning stuff at 11 that was never included in even A level English.

What used to be in A levels is now GCSE level, the level of work the kids are expected to do is insane which is again meaning that kids from starting year 7 are being drilled drilled and drilled some more in how to pass the tests which are now absolutely solid.

It is extremely sad and far from them increasing their ability they know how to pass specific tests but they struggle to transfer what they use to pass the tests into other areas.....For instance you will often find kids who are able to use extremely complex sentence structures to pass their SATS with a good level at the age of 10 then not using things like basic paragraphs in their standard day to day written work in other subjects.

This is the problem with rote learning, it has been the problem in China for a long long time....The govt aspires to beat the Chinese in the PISA tests but its like comparing chalk with cheese......They test a kids ability to remember shit loads of pointless facts, we have always taught skills which means kids are able to innovate and think through problems.

Our kids being able to remember every king and queen since the beginning of time and be able to remember 30 quotes from Shakespeare to pass their English exam is not education, its just a memory game....In an age where information is pretty much always available on a device in a persons pocket then the skill of remembering shit loads of facts is utterly pointless....

What I want is a kid who knows how to research any topic and critically analyse the information they research...Instead we are abandoning this approach to have kids learning long lists of pointless facts. The education system is going backwards.
Click to expand...

I remember my son asking this; took mae ages to realise he was on about the 'magic e' :lol::oops:
 
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Trying to learn Spanish at the moment is teaching me more about what I don't know about English than Spanish.

It's ridiculous the difference in how we were taught as opposed to how the Europeans are taught.
 
I helped one of the kids with Maths homework last year.

Took them through looking up the formulas, apply them to the homework and getting the right answers.
I was quite proud of myself, how much I'd remembered. They took it in the next day.

Came back later in the week with about 3 marked wrong, I appologised to the kid and checked them over. They were all correct!

So, the next parents evening I took it down and after the initial talk I slid it over and asked what the right answers were.

Me "These were marked wrong last month and I'd like to know what the right answers are please"
Her "We're not doing that part of the syllabus now, Im afraid"
Me " I didn't ask that, I'd like to know the correct answers to the questions you marked wrong"
Her "Well I'm afraid I don't have those workbooks to hand!"
Me "I don't want the work book, I'd like you, as a teacher, to work out a 13 year olds maths problem"
Her "This isn't the time for this, If you'd like to arrange an appointment we can discuss it later"
 
a1970man said:
I helped one of the kids with Maths homework last year.

Took them through looking up the formulas, apply them to the homework and getting the right answers.
I was quite proud of myself, how much I'd remembered. They took it in the next day.

Came back later in the week with about 3 marked wrong, I appologised to the kid and checked them over. They were all correct!

So, the next parents evening I took it down and after the initial talk I slid it over and asked what the right answers were.

Me "These were marked wrong last month and I'd like to know what the right answers are please"
Her "We're not doing that part of the syllabus now, Im afraid"
Me " I didn't ask that, I'd like to know the correct answers to the questions you marked wrong"
Her "Well I'm afraid I don't have those workbooks to hand!"
Me "I don't want the work book, I'd like you, as a teacher, to work out a 13 year olds maths problem"
Her "This isn't the time for this, If you'd like to arrange an appointment we can discuss it later"
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Please please please tell me this conversation did not happen infront of your child, if so please dont complain next time your kid is rude to his teacher as he is only following your lead.

She was right, parents evening is about a general chat about your childs progress, if there is a specific problem with a specific homework then make an appointment at a time it can be looked at and discussed when there is not another shit load of parents waiting for their tiny slot.

Oh and as for you being right and her being wrong, we have to take your word for that I guess as we havent seen either then equations or the answers you both gave. You have already acknowledged you hadnt done it for years, maybe it is you that has got them wrong?
 
I'm struggling to understand how a parent can struggle with a 10 year old's homework but I suppose if you found it hard the first time round you'll probably struggle this time round.
I would see this as a wonderful opportunity to learn together.

The only bad response would be to say the homework is stupid.
 
CatRyan said:
I'm struggling to understand how a parent can struggle with a 10 year old's homework but I suppose if you found it hard the first time round you'll probably struggle this time round.
I would see this as a wonderful opportunity to learn together.

The only bad response would be to say the homework is stupid.
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Because a lot of stuff taught in the new curriculum both in primary and secondary was never taught when we were at school

Have a look at questions 38 onwards of the English paper for year 6 SATS from 2016

Didnt even study

Subordinating Conjunction
Preposition
Co-0rdinating Conjunctions
Subjunctive Form
Determiners
Noun Phrase
Possesive Prounons

Im in my 40s, got a B in GCSE English language and a C in A level English Lit and did not cover any of the above.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...99/Sample_ks2_EnglishGPS_paper1_questions.pdf
 
Ghost of Bagpuss said:
Because a lot of stuff taught in the new curriculum both in primary and secondary was never taught when we were at school

Have a look at questions 38 onwards of the English paper for year 6 SATS from 2016

Didnt even study

Subordinating Conjunction
Preposition
Co-0rdinating Conjunctions
Subjunctive Form
Determiners
Noun Phrase
Possesive Prounons

Im in my 40s, got a B in GCSE English language and a C in A level English Lit and did not cover any of the above.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...99/Sample_ks2_EnglishGPS_paper1_questions.pdf
Click to expand...

So like I said, maybe this is an opportunity for a parent to learn with a child if they don't know that stuff already.
Personally I wouldn't struggle with it but my family are a bit weird I suppose.
 
CatRyan said:
So like I said, maybe this is an opportunity for a parent to learn with a child if they don't know that stuff already.
Personally I wouldn't struggle with it but my family are a bit weird I suppose.
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Depends where your education went after leaving school i guess, didnt learn it at school and never needed any of it as an adult...I guess some people like to study that kind of stuff for fun, i would rather stick pins in my own eyes.
 
Ghost of Bagpuss said:
Depends where your education went after leaving school i guess, didnt learn it at school and never needed any of it as an adult...I guess some people like to study that kind of stuff for fun, i would rather stick pins in my own eyes.
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Well I would suggest that is the wrong attitude.
It is amazing to be in a learning environment. Grasp the opportunity to learn with your child as a great thing.
I was at my brother's this weekend and his 6 year old recited She Walks In Beauty and the 9 year old recited Dover Beach, after explaining a chess rule where a pawn can take directly in front rather than diagonally or something. Thing is I have felt for many years that grammar is not supported enough and neither is a love of learning. So celebrate this learning that is going on.
It is all useful.
 
Gremlin said:
Split digraph - what we used to call "magic e".... cAkE - without the E on the end it would say cak... the e makes the vowel say the "letter name" sound (Ay). Might well not have been covered yet if it's a 5 year old in Reception - my own Reception kid hasn't covered them yet as they go through phonics sounds in phases and it's one of the later phases (pisses me off they keep sending reading books home rammed full of sounds they've not covered yet).

You're right about the curriculum all moving down though. Back when I was teaching we had a big curriculum change where loads of stuff shifted down a year from the year it was previously taught in, and the latest change seems to have done exactly the same again. Looking at the list of end of year expectations on my eldest's school report (and she's in a year group I used to teach so have a fairly clear idea of what's a poor/average/good level for that age group) - they're f***ing bonkers now. She's top of the class easily and isn't going to achieve half of them!

I've only been out of teaching a few years but I've had to brush up on the way the school's teaching maths now because that's all changed (again). I also marked bloody SATs tests for nearly 10 years and still had to google up what the fuck a fronted adverbial was the first time I came across that phrase which is f***ing ridiculous (yet another case of a stupid name being attached to something you already know how to do).
Click to expand...

Aye bizarrely it was covered in reception before they could barely read a sentence.

The one thing it is helping with is language teaching where they are finding the kids now have an understanding of the technical language constructs.

My real issue is that while kids are required and can identify these things, they are so drilled to the test they do not understand how they apply to their written work in general and despite having smashed their SATS they hit year 7 and struggle with basic grammar and punctuation.....For me these things are not even the icing on the cake, they are the cherry on the top rather than the butter and sugar in the cake mix.
 
Ghost of Bagpuss said:
Aye bizarrely it was covered in reception before they could barely read a sentence.

The one thing it is helping with is language teaching where they are finding the kids now have an understanding of the technical language constructs.

My real issue is that while kids are required and can identify these things, they are so drilled to the test they do not understand how they apply to their written work in general and despite having smashed their SATS they hit year 7 and struggle with basic grammar and punctuation.....For me these things are not even the icing on the cake, they are the cherry on the top rather than the butter and sugar in the cake mix.
Click to expand...

Precisely this. I knew a little boy of 3 who couldn't srring a sentence together. His cousin who was a girl a couple of days older than him and had an older sister would speak in a few words. The boy though could name every single make of car he saw. By the time he was 4 models as well.
Now he is 6 and he can't remember most of them.
He once identified a Mercedes from a close up picture of a head light and recognised the make of some London buses from the mudflap.

Point being that at certain times a child's brain soaks up certain stuff but if you don't use it you lose it.
 
Ghost of Bagpuss said:
Please please please tell me this conversation did not happen infront of your child, if so please dont complain next time your kid is rude to his teacher as he is only following your lead.

She was right, parents evening is about a general chat about your childs progress, if there is a specific problem with a specific homework then make an appointment at a time it can be looked at and discussed when there is not another shit load of parents waiting for their tiny slot.

Oh and as for you being right and her being wrong, we have to take your word for that I guess as we havent seen either then equations or the answers you both gave. You have already acknowledged you hadnt done it for years, maybe it is you that has got them wrong?
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A maths teacher in senior school should know how to work out the angles of a triangle, end of.

No matter if it’s a parents evening or in the pub.

I was calm, polite and respectful at all times.
 

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