TEST MATCH :: England v Pakistan

Not being competitive away sometimes can be understandable. Not being competitive at home is criminal, could easily lose all 7 Tests this summer.
 


Think Broad was unlucky tbh, bowled very well for little reward. Wood bowled alright too. Not sure he's the type of bowler that adds variety to the attack - but he put a good effort in, certainly. Anderson bowled too short and Bess doesn't turn it anywhere near enough - really odd selection, for me, not that its made any difference on the match. Would have plumped for the teenager at Surrey - he's been pulling up trees, whereas Bess has what is it? One wicket?

Overall though, the bowlers were unlucky - Pakistan rode their luck at times, and they were let down by some very poor fielding. Also: scoreboard pressure. Also also: Root fucked up the toss, massively. He says he thought it would dry out - but was he expecting young Bess to rattle through them in fourth innings? That's never going to be the way we win matches here...

Bess has had a fantastic start to his career like, better than the lad at Surrey, it was day 1 and 2 at Lords in May, it won't be turning.
 
Bess has had a fantastic start to his career like, better than the lad at Surrey, it was day 1 and 2 at Lords in May, it won't be turning.

Not sure that's true - certainly we can't really judge. The lad at Surrey: it's his first season, so he hasn't even got to the stage when Bess took all his wickets yet. And he's massively outperforming Bess this season.

I just think it's odd to pick a bowler who's taken one wicket. But ultimately - it makes no difference to this match. What doesn't make sense is Root's toss call - was he expecting Bess to dominate them in innings four? Absurd pressure to put on the lad.
 
Not sure that's true - certainly we can't really judge. The lad at Surrey: it's his first season, so he hasn't even got to the stage when Bess took all his wickets yet. And he's massively outperforming Bess this season.

I just think it's odd to pick a bowler who's taken one wicket. But ultimately - it makes no difference to this match. What doesn't make sense is Root's toss call - was he expecting Bess to dominate them in innings four? Absurd pressure to put on the lad.

Bess has played 16 games mate, not sure what you are on about it, he has took a hatful of wickets at 23, had a brilliant start

Why are you obsessing with 1 wicket? he has played like 2 games this year, and only bowled in a coupe of innings.

You don't just pick players based on 2 games like.

Totally agree with the last bit, very strange by Root
 
Thing is with cricket, happens all the time, at the end of one regime, you go for the opposite, So you go from tough, to relaxed.

It works very well in white ball no doubt, but it just hasn't worked at test arena.

As @smoker pointed out rightly, players coming into the team aren't adapting or getting better, that isn't a coincidence. Can't blame it all on bayliss, but its the culture of him, his staff and his captain.

We need to do something, whether its coach or captain. You are right, we need to get tougher.

However I do think we will get better this summer, we look ridiculously rusty, where Pakistan have obviously played 3 or 4 games as a team

That's the fault of the backroom set-up too though, isn't it? Flower wouldn't have stood for that I think - this lot are too lax, let the players prepare themselves. Pakistan have shown the way here: a real lesson in professionalism and preparation. The set-up must carry the can for it.
 
Because the batting has been shit for ages.

I think they're being told to "bat positively" to play "attacking cricket". I'd sack the entire set-up tbh, but Ramprakash is a big part of it.
Only batsman I've see out today playing an attacking shot has been Stokes, the rest were out to either poor defensive shots or reading the ball totally wrong, don't see what this has to do with a coach?
 
Bess has played 16 games mate, not sure what you are on about it, he has took a hatful of wickets at 23, had a brilliant start

Why are you obsessing with 1 wicket? he has played like 2 games this year, and only bowled in a coupe of innings.

You don't just pick players based on 2 games like.

Totally agree with the last bit, very strange by Root

I mean - Bess took all his wickets last year (in his first season) from July onwards. No surprise there - given he was second spinner and had to wait until the pitches are turning.

What I'm saying is: if you plotted the Surrey spinner's first season on a graph, against Bess's first season - a bit like those run-chae graphs - he'd be ahead.

It's just my gut too: he turns it more.

It's an academic debate anyway: a) would have been Leech and probably should be if he's fit. b) it's made no difference to this match. c) I don't mind them trying a few different people to try and find the right spinner. Not attacking the selectors on Bess - just wouldn't have been my call.

Only batsman I've see out today playing an attacking shot has been Stokes, the rest were out to either poor defensive shots or reading the ball totally wrong, don't see what this has to do with a coach?

By attacking - certainly in first innings, granted their heads have gone a bit i this one - I don't mean going for the big shots. I mean pushing hard at the ball, coming on to the ball. The Sky analysts are bang on the money - on this pitch, you let the ball come to you. Two batsman who've done that: Cook first innings, Root second. Everyone else - even Bairstow - pushing at the ball. They need to play it later, give themselves the best chance, and play with softer hands. That's a one day technique, creeping into a test technique basically.
 
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I mean - Bess took all his wickets last year (in his first season) from July onwards. No surprise there - given he was second spinner and had to wait until the pitches are turning.

What I'm saying is: if you plotted the Surrey spinner's first season on a graph, against Bess's first season - a bit like those run-chae graphs - he'd be ahead.

It's just my gut too: he turns it more.

It's an academic debate anyway: a) would have been Leech and probably should be if he's fit. b) it's made no difference to this match. c) I don't mind them trying a few different people to try and find the right spinner. Not attacking the selectors on Bess - just wouldn't have been my call.



By attacking - certainly in first innings, granted their heads have gone a bit i this one - I don't mean going for the big shots. I mean pushing hard at the ball, coming on to the ball. The Sky analysts are bang on the money - on this pitch, you let the ball come to you. Two batsman who've done that: Cook first innings, Root second. Everyone else - even Bairstow - pushing at the ball. They need to play it later, give themselves the best chance, and play with softer hands. That's a one day technique, creeping into a test technique basically.

I think you are being very harsh on Bess, he has had a cracking start, bowled well on the Lions tour and in the north and south games, looks a good cricketer with a big future.

Spinner shouldn't be having much impact on this game.

Only batsman I've see out today playing an attacking shot has been Stokes, the rest were out to either poor defensive shots or reading the ball totally wrong, don't see what this has to do with a coach?

Yeah true in this innings, not the first. Can't blame coaches for every dismissal, but the team is soft, they are capable of absolute genius when it goes right, and I have watched some of the best cricket in years sometimes with this team, but they need toughening up in every aspect.

They have created a fantastic, welcoming dressing room, but maybe they need a tougher one like under Flower and Strauss. KP criticised it, but I have no doubt he would have played better in that team than he would in this
 
I think you are being very harsh on Bess, he has had a cracking start, bowled well on the Lions tour and in the north and south games, looks a good cricketer with a big future.

Spinner shouldn't be having much impact on this game.

I'm not being harsh - I'm just saying I personally wouldn't have picked him. In no way whatsoever am I blaming Bess for this debacle. My original OP was to try and take the blame off the bowlers entirely, really - this is about our batting. Yet again.

I just have an instinct Virdi is better because he turns it more. I think he's a special talent - he's got 18 wickets at 19 in f***ing May! When a teenage spinner does that, you stand up and take notice!
 
Haway Buttler

I'm not being harsh - I'm just saying I personally wouldn't have picked him. In no way whatsoever am I blaming Bess for this debacle. My original OP was to try and take the blame off the bowlers entirely, really - this is about our batting. Yet again.

I just have an instinct Virdi is better because he turns it more. I think he's a special talent - he's got 18 wickets at 19 in f***ing May! When a teenage spinner does that, you stand up and take notice!

True, and I sure they have to be fair, but just think he hasn't quite done enough as Bess.

At least they have finally started picking actual spin bowlers though.
 
Haway Buttler



True, and I sure they have to be fair, but just think he hasn't quite done enough as Bess.

At least they have finally started picking actual spin bowlers though.

I think the fact Bess knows which end to pick the bat up will have made a difference. Virdi is an atrocious batsman by all accounts - a real Panesar style rabbit.

I still think Buttler will score runs, he averages 30+ already, which isn't too bad of a starting point.



Got injured but he should be nowhere near the team, doesn't take wickets in the CC even.

Agree, but we need to think about we nurture him - a young leggie, it's not easy in England. Should consider playing his first class cricket abroad - and the ECB should try to set it up.
 
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I think the fact Bess knows which end to pick the bat up will have made a difference. Virdi is an atrocious batsman by all accounts - a real Panesar style rabbit.



Agree, but we need to think about we nurture him - a young leggie, it's not easy in England. Should consider playing his first class cricket abroad - and the ECB should try to set it up.

I think involve him with the white ball stuff, that looks his best bet, he is a talent, no need to rush him like.

Australia went through a period after Warne of just picking young spinners, looking for an X-Factor

They ended up with just the most consistent off spinner and stuck with him and let him grow.

I don't think this team is good enough to have in an inconsistent leg spinner at the minute.
 
I still think Buttler will score runs, he averages 30+ already, which isn't too bad of a starting point.

Got injured but he should be nowhere near the team, doesn't take wickets in the CC even.

If Buttler gets 50-80 here, that'll be him in for a while. Would answer some questions tbh - application and bottle. A lot of pressure on him and he's already handled it better than nearly all his teammates.

If he can grind out 40s, then you have to prefer him to the other options, for what he can do on a flat track.

I think involve him with the white ball stuff, that looks his best bet, he is a talent, no need to rush him like.

Australia went through a period after Warne of just picking young spinners, looking for an X-Factor

They ended up with just the most consistent off spinner and stuck with him and let him grow.

I don't think this team is good enough to have in an inconsistent leg spinner at the minute.

Absolutely not. Also, since DRS, off-spinning has become a lot more dangerous. Unless your leggie is world class, then it's always likely to be the better option because it's more versatile in terms of attach/defence.

I think they should look to encourage his development by making him play some red-ball cricket in a different environment: the sub-continent, maybe Australia.
 
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If Buttler gets 50-80 here, that'll be him in for a while. Would answer some questions tbh - application and bottle. A lot of pressure on him and he's already handled it better than nearly all his teammates.

If he can grind out 40s, then you have to prefer him to the other options, for what he can do on a flat track.

Aye, that is my point, he knows the pressure of international cricket, I think he will grind out 40s no problem, I don't think he will find it that hard, whether he can get 100s, I am not so sure. he doesn't need to go all guns blazing though, just use his natural eye.

Whether that is enough? Who knows, but I guess it is at number 7, the real issue is can bairstow score big runs at 5, I am not convinced, and he is my favourite player so don't say that lightly, he got a good ball today though.

As the only other option is Bairstow at 7 then a new number 5 capable of scoring bit tons.
 
I'm not being harsh - I'm just saying I personally wouldn't have picked him. In no way whatsoever am I blaming Bess for this debacle. My original OP was to try and take the blame off the bowlers entirely, really - this is about our batting. Yet again.

I just have an instinct Virdi is better because he turns it more. I think he's a special talent - he's got 18 wickets at 19 in f***ing May! When a teenage spinner does that, you stand up and take notice!

Our fielding has been shocking anarl mind.
 
Our fielding has been shocking anarl mind.

Terrible, yes. In the slips where the most damage has been done. But honestly: how bad a fielder is Stoneman? He's shocking.

Aye, that is my point, he knows the pressure of international cricket, I think he will grind out 40s no problem, I don't think he will find it that hard, whether he can get 100s, I am not so sure. he doesn't need to go all guns blazing though, just use his natural eye.

Whether that is enough? Who knows, but I guess it is at number 7, the real issue is can bairstow score big runs at 5, I am not convinced, and he is my favourite player so don't say that lightly, he got a good ball today though.

As the only other option is Bairstow at 7 then a new number 5 capable of scoring bit tons.

What do you think to the idea in the media that they were toying with another experiment: Bairstow as opener.

Would probably have to give Buttler the gloves then.

It's not ideal, but I'm not completely against it. We have no quality at opener whatsoever - though you'd have to bring in a proper number three if you tried it and push Root back down to four. And I've no idea who that number three could be: maybe Jennings, but if he's good enough, then why not just bring him in in his proper position.
 
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If Buttler gets 50-80 here, that'll be him in for a while. Would answer some questions tbh - application and bottle. A lot of pressure on him and he's already handled it better than nearly all his teammates.

If he can grind out 40s, then you have to prefer him to the other options, for what he can do on a flat track.



Absolutely not. Also, since DRS, off-spinning has become a lot more dangerous. Unless your leggie is world class, then it's always likely to be the better option because it's more versatile in terms of attach/defence.

I think they should look to encourage his development by making him play some red-ball cricket in a different environment: the sub-continent, maybe Australia.

Buttler thrives on pressure as much as any England player, I have seen for a long while,like you say it's his application and his technique that he has to prove at test level and is still very much up for debate.
 

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