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RE: Wingers (and attacking midfielders)

We have McGeady and Maguire who are up there in most people's lists of our best players. While neither are pacey, would you have sold one or both of them in the Summer in order to bring in another winger? Between those two and Gooch we have three players competing for two positions in a 4-4-2 formation, or them and O'Nien and McNulty competing for three positions in a 4-2-3-1 formation. With Watmore able to play on the wing as well as up front, he's a pacey option to add to that mix if we need it.

I just don't see why not bringing in another winger is worthy of criticism. As far as I'm concerned we're well-covered in that area and it was no surprise at all to me that we didn't bring in another winger in the Summer.

As I've said earlier in the thread, while I agree that we're technically weaker in a couple of positions than we were at the end of the season, those positions were being occupied by players we couldn't afford to keep this year because of the League 1 wage restrictions, and it would be completely unreasonable to expect us to be able to replace them with better players than the ones we got rid of. In addition the squad is now much more balanced than the one that finished the season and arguably we're stronger up front and in central defence than we were last year. While Dobson might not technically be an upgrade on Cattermole, we got rid of a more defensive-minded central midfielder and brought in a more attacking one, something that we definitely needed to do.

We also needed to reduce the wage bill because of our reduced turnover this year due to the League 1 wage restrictions saying our wage bill can't be more than 60% of our turnover. With this year's parachute payment being so much less than the one we received last year, we had to dramatically reduce our wage bill this year in order to conform with the rule, while simultaneously giving us a little bit of breathing room for January if we needed to bring in more players, and also keeping us sustainable and making us look more attractive to potential investors.

Again, for the most part, Watmore isn't normally able to play anywhere, so let's get that out of the way to start.

Who suggested selling McGeady or Maguire to bring anyone in? Baffling comment.

O'Nien? Irrelevant.

That leaves us with McGeady, Maguire, and Gooch. Three players to cover either LM and RM and sub, LWF and RWF and sum, or LWF, AM, RWF no sub. That's just making up numbers and not giving any consideration to fitness, injuries, or the fact we look a bit lightweight defensively when McGeady and Maguire play together. You could argue McNulty has been brought in as a viable option as a number 10 or supporting striker, but I'm not sure he fits the bill out wide. It's a long season, and we had those options plus Honeyman last year, and at times were lacking. So to completely discount the suggestion that we should have maybe been in for another wide option altogether, let alone one that might have offered something a little different, i.e. pace, crossing ability, I think is a bit naive.

You might have a point where wage restrictions are concerned, that's fair enough, but you can't honestly believe Dobson is a more attack minded midfielder than Lee Cattermole, who just say happened to score more goals and make more assists last season.

All that aside, my chief concern going into the summer was the full back positions - and quite frankly the recruitment there, or rather lack thereof, has been nothing short of a joke, and that certainly is worthy of criticism.

Now with Cattermole and Oviedo off the wage bill, and McGeady stretching his contract out over a longer period cos he's git canny like that, and given the 'fact' we have the "Biggest Budget In The League Ever", why is it that we still can't seem to scramble together a balanced squad. Why is it we're still having to resort to playing Luke O'Nien at full back? Something is not adding up.
If you're not going to address the rest of the post, then I'll simply say "I disagree". :)
U wot m8?
 
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I agree, a lot of it's uncalled for. Look I've said numerous times before, I like Donald and Methven, but that doesn't mean they're beyond criticism. I desperately want to see them succeed and do well, but Wardley is talking about strategic plans etc. I'm really none the wiser, what plan?

Our transfer dealings have been scattergun, we haven't developed a style of play and the fans have received little in return for their continued loyalty. I think we've been extremely patient considering how poor the football has been.

How much is the football a consequence of the restructuring of the club. Certainly had an enormous turnover of players so you could argue it’s a big task to gel a team.
Could argue that we have had a poor success rate with recruitment, almost as if we have bought whoever was available in our panic to build a team. Could argue we should have brought in
I was hoping to see us going down the route of signing young players, bring lads in from the academy, scouting the non-leagues, League of Ireland, Scotland and across Europe. I hoped to have a squad of about 20 players with most on the right side of 28. Also link up with the junior sides in and around the area to help the academy. If it took us 3 years to get promoted so be it but at least we have a long term sustainable plan in place.

So far we done the opposite. We've done pretty much what we have been doing for the last 10 years.


That’s a very strong point and I echo it but I don’t think they would have been given the patience to do it.
Interesting thing is with the precedent of Maja we would have sold any young player anyone showed an interest in.
 
TL;DR, I think it's too simplistic to say "the squad is weaker than last year" and use it as a stick to beat the owners over the head with.

There are some very valid points regarding the balance of the squad. Even now we are playing a balancing act in terms of numbers due to FFP. Like most people I've given the recruitment team a fair bit of stick but I accept it must be a difficult job.

This is a stick of the owners making though. It's them who keep going on about having the biggest budget in League One. They are the ones who simplify what's going on with the football side of the business.
 
That’s a very strong point and I echo it but I don’t think they would have been given the patience to do it.
Interesting thing is with the precedent of Maja we would have sold any young player anyone showed an interest in.
That in itself is terrible indictment.
 
That in itself is terrible indictment.

All points to a weak recruitment strategy .... everything comes back up this for me. The failure to get promoted, Ross sacking, dreary football all comes back to buying, selling and developing players.
SD could probably have sold the club to Afgan warlords and no body would have been bothered had they got the recruitment strategy right
 
RE: Wingers (and attacking midfielders)

We have McGeady and Maguire who are up there in most people's lists of our best players. While neither are pacey, would you have sold one or both of them in the Summer in order to bring in another winger? Between those two and Gooch we have three players competing for two positions in a 4-4-2 formation, or them and O'Nien and McNulty competing for three positions in a 4-2-3-1 formation. With Watmore able to play on the wing as well as up front, he's a pacey option to add to that mix if we need it.

I just don't see why not bringing in another winger is worthy of criticism. As far as I'm concerned we're well-covered in that area and it was no surprise at all to me that we didn't bring in another winger in the Summer.

As I've said earlier in the thread, while I agree that we're technically weaker in a couple of positions than we were at the end of the season, those positions were being occupied by players we couldn't afford to keep this year because of the League 1 wage restrictions, and it would be completely unreasonable to expect us to be able to replace them with better players than the ones we got rid of. In addition the squad is now much more balanced than the one that finished the season and arguably we're stronger up front and in central defence than we were last year. While Dobson might not technically be an upgrade on Cattermole, we got rid of a more defensive-minded central midfielder and brought in a more attacking one, something that we definitely needed to do.

We also needed to reduce the wage bill because of our reduced turnover this year due to the League 1 wage restrictions saying our wage bill can't be more than 60% of our turnover. With this year's parachute payment being so much less than the one we received last year, we had to dramatically reduce our wage bill this year in order to conform with the rule, while simultaneously giving us a little bit of breathing room for January if we needed to bring in more players, and also keeping us sustainable and making us look more attractive to potential investors.

TL;DR, I think it's too simplistic to say "the squad is weaker than last year" and use it as a stick to beat the owners over the head with.
Whether we're stronger or weaker man for man is irrelevant. Man for man we've got arguably one of the strongest squads in the division with lots of relatively good players for this level, imo.

But put it all together and it doesn't work because the midfield is painfully slow. The central midfielders sit so deep because they haven't got the legs to get up and down. And that leaves the forwards isolated so we end up punting aimless long balls up to nobody in particular.

Far too simplistic to say 'we have Gooch so that's alright'
 
Whether we're stronger or weaker man for man is irrelevant. Man for man we've got arguably one of the strongest squads in the division with lots of relatively good players for this level, imo.

But put it all together and it doesn't work because the midfield is painfully slow. The central midfielders sit so deep because they haven't got the legs to get up and down. And that leaves the forwards isolated so we end up punting aimless long balls up to nobody in particular.

Far too simplistic to say 'we have Gooch so that's alright'
And a distinct lack of full backs.
 
We had the worst season in Sunderland AFC’s entire history last season. By a distance.

We’re currently 9th.

Newcastle fans are stupid because they’re whinging with their team in the premier league. We’re just above mid table in the third division.

But yay, ticket sales

Given that they could only ever match our worst ever league performance in their first season I find this particular complaint totally and utterly bizarre tbh.
 
Again, for the most part, Watmore isn't normally able to play anywhere, so let's get that out of the way to start.

Who suggested selling McGeady or Maguire to bring anyone in? Baffling comment.

O'Nien? Irrelevant.

That leaves us with McGeady, Maguire, and Gooch. Three players to cover either LM and RM and sub, LWF and RWF and sum, or LWF, AM, RWF no sub. That's just making up numbers and not giving any consideration to fitness, injuries, or the fact we look a bit lightweight defensively when McGeady and Maguire play together. You could argue McNulty has been brought in as a viable option as a number 10 or supporting striker, but I'm not sure he fits the bill out wide. It's a long season, and we had those options plus Honeyman last year, and at times were lacking. So to completely discount the suggestion that we should have maybe been in for another wide option altogether, let alone one that might have offered something a little different, i.e. pace, crossing ability, I think is a bit naive.

You might have a point where wage restrictions are concerned, that's fair enough, but you can't honestly believe Dobson is a more attack minded midfielder than Lee Cattermole, who just say happened to score more goals and make more assists last season.

All that aside, my chief concern going into the summer was the full back positions - and quite frankly the recruitment there, or rather lack thereof, has been nothing short of a joke, and that certainly is worthy of criticism.

Now with Cattermole and Oviedo off the wage bill, and McGeady stretching his contract out over a longer period cos he's git canny like that, and given the 'fact' we have the "Biggest Budget In The League Ever", why is it that we still can't seem to scramble together a balanced squad. Why is it we're still having to resort to playing Luke O'Nien at full back? Something is not adding up.

U wot m8?

OK, I haven't got long so I'll try to do this quickly.

Let's stay civil. No need for comments like "baffling" and "naive" to be aimed at each other when we've been discussing this calmly so far.

O'Nien's not irrelevant, because his preferred position is AMC, where he's competing with McNulty primarily as well as Embleton, with McGeady and Maguire also able to play there, as is Gooch at a push.

RW: Maguire, Gooch, Watmore, (Also McGeady can play there, as can O'Nien at a push)
LW: McGeady, Maguire, Gooch

Essentially, for three positions (if we're using an AMC), LW, RW, AMC we have seven players, which is plenty. If we're not using an AMC then we have five players competing for two positions, which is enough to give us an additional reserve player on top of the standard "two players per position".

We brought in two full-backs in the Summer, and we already had Denver Hume getting starts and deserving of being allowed to compete for LB with the new guy, and O'Nien had been playing RB most of last year, making him an adequate reserve for RB behind the new guy.

We "resorted" to playing O'Nien at left-back the other week in order to bring on another attacking player while chasing a result rather than replacing De Bock with Hume when DB needed to come off. Nothing wrong with that.

Cattermole did get some goals last season, and credit to him for that, but he's clearly a hard-tackling CM whose primary role is to stay back and win the ball before giving it to someone else, of which we had about five or six including youngsters on the periphery, whereas Dobson is a more creative CM; something we were desperately short of. That's all I meant when I suggested Dobson was "more attack-minded" than Catts.

IMO the squad is a lot more balanced than it was last year.
 
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OK, I haven't got long so I'll try to do this quickly.

Let's stay civil. No need for comments like "baffling" and "naive" to be aimed at each other when we've been discussing this calmly so far.

O'Nien's not irrelevant, because his preferred position is AMC, where he's competing with McNulty primarily as well as Embleton, with McGeady and Maguire also able to play there, as is Gooch at a push.

RW: Maguire, Gooch, Watmore, (Also McGeady can play there, as can O'Nien at a push)
LW: McGeady, Maguire, Gooch

Essentially, for three positions (if we're using an AMC), LW, RW, AMC we have seven players, which is plenty. If we're not using an AMC then we have five players competing for two positions, which is enough to give us an additional reserve player on top of the standard "two players per position".

We brought in two full-backs in the Summer, and we already had Denver Hume getting starts and deserving of being allowed to compete for LB with the new guy, and O'Nien had been playing RB most of last year, making him an adequate reserve for RB behind the new guy.

We "resorted" to playing O'Nien at left-back the other week in order to bring on another attacking player while chasing a result rather than replacing De Bock with Hume when DB needed to come off. Nothing wrong with that.

Cattermole did get some goals last season, and credit to him for that, but he's clearly a hard-tackling CM whose primary role is to stay back and win the ball before giving it to someone else, of which we had about five or six including youngsters on the periphery, whereas Dobson is a more creative CM; something we were desperately short of. That's all I meant when I suggested Dobson was "more attack-minded" than Catts.

IMO the squad is a lot more balanced than it was last year.
Baffling and naive were me being civil, but nevermind.

O'Nien is irrelevant when discussing forwards. And I don't care if he fancies himself as an AMC, cos he looks frig all like one.

Embleton? Give me a break.

I've already discussed the pitfalls of McGeady and Maguire together in the same team,

The fullbacks... we brought in McLaughlin. Ok. I'm not convinced O'Nien is an adequate reserve. The jury is out on Hume, who spent much of last season injured. De Bock was a last minute loan with very limited experience in English football - looked a pretty desperate move to me.

We've resorted to playing O'Nien at right back numerous times already this season because at times we haven't had a left back so McLaughlin has filled in there. At times he's been simply selected ahead of McLaughlin because so far McLaughlin has looked a shambles, albeit mostly out of position.

Dobson doesn't look creative to me at all, and I don't think you're giving Cattermole anywhere near the credit he deserves for some of his more forward thinking passing.

The squad is absolutely not more balanced. We have 3 unremarkable fullbacks and someone who looks to be a try-hard utility player to cover the full back positions, and the midfield is weaker. Oviedo and Matthews were head and shoulders above what we have now, and we had more options.

I've got time for McNulty, but I'm already becoming concerned about the amount of time he's spending on the sidelines.
 
Baffling and naive were me being civil, but nevermind.

O'Nien is irrelevant when discussing forwards. And I don't care if he fancies himself as an AMC, cos he looks frig all like one.

Embleton? Give me a break.

I've already discussed the pitfalls of McGeady and Maguire together in the same team,

The fullbacks... we brought in McLaughlin. Ok. I'm not convinced O'Nien is an adequate reserve. The jury is out on Hume, who spent much of last season injured. De Bock was a last minute loan with very limited experience in English football - looked a pretty desperate move to me.

We've resorted to playing O'Nien at right back numerous times already this season because at times we haven't had a left back so McLaughlin has filled in there. At times he's been simply selected ahead of McLaughlin because so far McLaughlin has looked a shambles, albeit mostly out of position.

Dobson doesn't look creative to me at all, and I don't think you're giving Cattermole anywhere near the credit he deserves for some of his more forward thinking passing.

The squad is absolutely not more balanced. We have 3 unremarkable fullbacks and someone who looks to be a try-hard utility player to cover the full back positions, and the midfield is weaker. Oviedo and Matthews were head and shoulders above what we have now, and we had more options.

I've got time for McNulty, but I'm already becoming concerned about the amount of time he's spending on the sidelines.

I rated Cattermole very highly and defended him repeatedly against folks on here, and yes his passing was great, but he's not a "try to dribble round opponents" style of player, he's a "get the ball and then give it to someone else" kind of player, of which we also had Power, McGeouch, Leadbitter, Robson, Mumba. Loads of similar type of player and none of the other.

I don't have time right now to discuss the rest so let's just agree to disagree. :)
 
Given that they could only ever match our worst ever league performance in their first season I find this particular complaint totally and utterly bizarre tbh.

And yet it happened. And here we are, still in the same league and currently sitting 9th, 5 months on.
 
I rated Cattermole very highly and defended him repeatedly against folks on here, and yes his passing was great, but he's not a "try to dribble round opponents" style of player, he's a "get the ball and then give it to someone else" kind of player, of which we also had Power, McGeouch, Leadbitter, Robson, Mumba. Loads of similar type of player and none of the other.

I don't have time right now to discuss the rest so let's just agree to disagree. :)
Is Dobson?

I'd put Dobson in that exact same bracket. I'm not even particularly annoyed that Dobson is the player we've signed to replace Cattermole, but why you're trying to pass him off as anything other is beyond me.
Given that they could only ever match our worst ever league performance in their first season I find this particular complaint totally and utterly bizarre tbh.
They couldn't even do that though. It was our lowest finish ever. At present, we're on course to outdo ourselves in that respect yet again.
 
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Charlie Methven knows Ellis Short, so you're talking shite again.....Hahaha
Doesn’t mean they’re friends
Can't speak for anyone else mate, I'm not saying it just because he is (in your words) level headed.
I said it because I'm pretty sure he is / was something to do with RR?

He's mates with the people who run it IIRC?

May be wrong, but just putting it out there because 'context' and 'agenda' is important to remember when reading some people's posts.
I’m nothing to do with the club or RR.
 
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I didn't say you were, my assumption was that you knew / are mates with them?

If not my apologies, but your response is carefully worded and this is the SMB where everyone is suspicious.

;)
Nope no connection. Know 1 or 2 at the club but that doesn’t influence anything. To be honest I just react when I see the constant negatives about my club. If you met me, id moan about plenty. Its just when it comes to this board, people are extreme in their views, so I’m extreme in return.
 
Nope no connection. Know 1 or 2 at the club but that doesn’t influence anything. To be honest I just react when I see the constant negatives about my club. If you met me, id moan about plenty. Its just when it comes to this board, people are extreme in their views, so I’m extreme in return.

Fair do's about the RR connection mate, I picked that up wrong - my apologies.

Mind you - 'arguing the extreme' to counteract the extremists is exactly what's turned this place into the madhouse that you're reacting to.
 
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