Stick or twist..

I agree. My theory on Cattermole, which may very well be wrong, is that he has had so many injuries and played on with injections to get him through games that his body is shot. He's the opposite of the likes of Rodwell who will not play with the slightest twinge. People will say Cattermole's problem is his drinking but I'm not so sure. Despite people hating Cattermole I think he is the least of our problems. Its the same with O'Shea - he's nearly 37 and can't run but will still give 100%. Our problems are more to do with players like Rodwell (obviously), Kone (what was he doing on Saturday) and Ndong and then a whole list of players with no ability whatsoever such as McManaman, Steele, Camp etc.


Regardless of the cause - whether it is lifestyle, injuries, a mixture of the two - I would suggest that Cattermole is far from the least of our problems.

He plays in a key position, is one of our most experienced players, and week in, week out, the game is being played around him, and we are conceding goals left, right, and centre that are down to him. The first goal on Saturday was from a free kick where he pushed their player with two hands to the chest because he couldn't get close enough to tackle him. We are at best playing with ten men with him in the team chasing shadows and with the embarrassing attempts at forward passes going out of play, the concession of free kicks, etc, he's arguably worse than that.

I'd say he is far from the least of our problems.

It always comes down to money ultimately but then it almost always does in football but there are a lot of things we can do to effect a quick change in mentality. The Rodwell situation needs sorting as it’s an absolute distraction for everyone associated with the club....we must agree a payoff with him.

Secondly anyone who’s out of contract should be allowed to leave and of those on loan or who might bring a fee in and who have been shown to have a poor attitude should be moved on.

The next bit is the contentious issue....how much of what comes in do we allow for rebuilding. It can’t be a few hundred thousand...it needs to be a substantial amount (relative to the league) and we need to impose ourselves on the league right from the off. We will be the biggest club in L1 and we need to act as if we are.

But we can't agree if he won't. People just don't seem to get it - we offered him a f***ing stupid contract, he has signed a contract, we are legally obliged to pay him. We could pay him all the money he is owed between now and 30 June 2019 but it won't help very much, and he doesn't need to agree to anything less than that.
 
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On the grounds that he's tried about 3 times this season, hides from the ball, can't run and several managers during a less than glorious period have singled him out as a bad influence. The latest being Grayson at a talk in a couple of weeks ago. His newest contract will prohibit any sale.

The lad is ingrained with failure and we need to move on. Stick him and his smell with Rodders.
This is bollocks. As is this.

I've not heard anything about a talk-in, you'll have to enlighten me.
 
But we can't agree if he won't. People just don't seem to get it - we offered him a f***ing stupid contract, he has signed a contract, we are legally obliged to pay him. We could pay him all the money he is owed between now and 30 June 2019 but it won't help very much, and he doesn't need to agree to anything less than that.
If, as looks likely, he isn't going to play first team football, it may be better to do that, rather than have him hang around like a bad smell.
 
This is bollocks. As is this.

I've not heard anything about a talk-in, you'll have to enlighten me.
Correct - he's one player who doesn't hide from the ball. I have never heard a manager singling out Cattermole as a bad influence - on the contrary most talk him up much to the annoyance of some on here. I certainly have not heard of any talk in with Grayson where he criticised Cattermole.
 
If, as looks likely, he isn't going to play first team football, it may be better to do that, rather than have him hang around like a bad smell.
Problem for club is that would set a bad precedent, what would stop other saying something like “Jack got away with it why don’t I try it on as well”
 
Regardless of the cause - whether it is lifestyle, injuries, a mixture of the two - I would suggest that Cattermole is far from the least of our problems.

He plays in a key position, is one of our most experienced players, and week in, week out, the game is being played around him, and we are conceding goals left, right, and centre that are down to him. The first goal on Saturday was from a free kick where he pushed their player with two hands to the chest because he couldn't get close enough to tackle him. We are at best playing with ten men with him in the team chasing shadows and with the embarrassing attempts at forward passes going out of play, the concession of free kicks, etc, he's arguably worse than that.

I'd say he is far from the least of our problems.



But we can't agree if he won't. People just don't seem to get it - we offered him a f***ing stupid contract, he has signed a contract, we are legally obliged to pay him. We could pay him all the money he is owed between now and 30 June 2019 but it won't help very much, and he doesn't need to agree to anything less than that.

Which is why I suggested a “carrot and stick” approach to Rodwell. Either agree to a settlement OR face a whole new level of scrutiny. This would include being available for selection at all times and any claimed injury that the club doctor can’t confirm should be subjected to independent examination. Any further refusal to play would result in a fine. Now I’m speaking from a close source when I say this and I’ll guarantee the last thing he will want is to be in and around the match day experience. BUT we must make it clear to him that a refusal to accept a payoff WILL result in him being made to fulfill his obligations football wise....it’s a complete abrogation of responsibility to let an employee on £3.5m play slots in the Metro Ctr on match days.
 
This is bollocks. As is this.

I've not heard anything about a talk-in, you'll have to enlighten me.

It's not bollocks. He's spent the season hiding and with his hand out telling team mates not to pass with him. When the going gets tough he goes missing and lets the likes of Honeyman run themselves into the ground.

Isn't it funny that managers try and get him on board whilst they're here and need his influence in the dressing room but the daggers come out once they've left? And just because you haven't heard about Grayson doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Correct - he's one player who doesn't hide from the ball. I have never heard a manager singling out Cattermole as a bad influence - on the contrary most talk him up much to the annoyance of some on here. I certainly have not heard of any talk in with Grayson where he criticised Cattermole.

:lol: Staggering that like.
 
Which is why I suggested a “carrot and stick” approach to Rodwell. Either agree to a settlement OR face a whole new level of scrutiny. This would include being available for selection at all times and any claimed injury that the club doctor can’t confirm should be subjected to independent examination. Any further refusal to play would result in a fine. Now I’m speaking from a close source when I say this and I’ll guarantee the last thing he will want is to be in and around the match day experience. BUT we must make it clear to him that a refusal to accept a payoff WILL result in him being made to fulfill his obligations football wise....it’s a complete abrogation of responsibility to let an employee on £3.5m play slots in the Metro Ctr on match days.
TBH, I can't understand why the club isn't already doing this.

Actually, I can. We're Sunderland.
 
Which is why I suggested a “carrot and stick” approach to Rodwell. Either agree to a settlement OR face a whole new level of scrutiny. This would include being available for selection at all times and any claimed injury that the club doctor can’t confirm should be subjected to independent examination. Any further refusal to play would result in a fine. Now I’m speaking from a close source when I say this and I’ll guarantee the last thing he will want is to be in and around the match day experience. BUT we must make it clear to him that a refusal to accept a payoff WILL result in him being made to fulfill his obligations football wise....it’s a complete abrogation of responsibility to let an employee on £3.5m play slots in the Metro Ctr on match days.

But what you are saying - unfortunately - doesn't help us one bit.

He has no need to agree a payoff, unless we offer him the £4m wages he will get between now and the end of June 2019. There is zero chance of that happening.

If he claims to be injured, there are loads of injuries that can't be proven not to exist, even by club doctors / independent examiners. Kone tried it on for much of last season when he claimed to have a bad back which did not show up on any scan. Loads of players including Defoe tried it on after relegation.

If we tried to fine him for not playing when he is saying he is injured, then he would be able to take the field, not move, cost us dearly, and ask to be substituted.

And even if he didn't feign injury, who in their right minds would want Jack Rodwell anywhere near the first team squad on matchday? There's loads of people on here wanting him to be in the squad so that they can hurl abuse at him - that's utterly ridiculous, we have enough problems without having Jack bloody Rodwell in the team / squad.

We've clearly been trying to sicken him into leaving - double training sessions on his own, embarrassing him in the press, and it's not a coincidence that the two Under 23 games he played in were away at Dagenham and Exeter. Then he pretends to be injured again. His career is finished - he is happy picking up the money we are paying him as his last pay day and his only goal is to keep collecting those payments.

I'm not defending him - he is a weak, immoral, entitled, self-indulgent wanker who epitomises everything that is wrong with football, and should be shot with shit.

The fundamental problem is that we had an American owner who appointed Lee Congerton who oversaw the demise of Hamburg, because he and his part-time basketball researcher mate shared his moneyball obsession in the absence of any football knowledge among the three of them. The algorithms on the spreadsheet said we should sign Rodwell, Man City wanted rid, and we 'negotiated' yet another shite deal to bring him here.
 
But what you are saying - unfortunately - doesn't help us one bit.

He has no need to agree a payoff, unless we offer him the £4m wages he will get between now and the end of June 2019. There is zero chance of that happening.

If he claims to be injured, there are loads of injuries that can't be proven not to exist, even by club doctors / independent examiners. Kone tried it on for much of last season when he claimed to have a bad back which did not show up on any scan. Loads of players including Defoe tried it on after relegation.

If we tried to fine him for not playing when he is saying he is injured, then he would be able to take the field, not move, cost us dearly, and ask to be substituted.

And even if he didn't feign injury, who in their right minds would want Jack Rodwell anywhere near the first team squad on matchday? There's loads of people on here wanting him to be in the squad so that they can hurl abuse at him - that's utterly ridiculous, we have enough problems without having Jack bloody Rodwell in the team / squad.

We've clearly been trying to sicken him into leaving - double training sessions on his own, embarrassing him in the press, and it's not a coincidence that the two Under 23 games he played in were away at Dagenham and Exeter. Then he pretends to be injured again. His career is finished - he is happy picking up the money we are paying him as his last pay day and his only goal is to keep collecting those payments.

I'm not defending him - he is a weak, immoral, entitled, self-indulgent wanker who epitomises everything that is wrong with football, and should be shot with shit.

The fundamental problem is that we had an American owner who appointed Lee Congerton who oversaw the demise of Hamburg, because he and his part-time basketball researcher mate shared his moneyball obsession in the absence of any football knowledge among the three of them. The algorithms on the spreadsheet said we should sign Rodwell, Man City wanted rid, and we 'negotiated' yet another shite deal to bring him here.

Yeah I take all your points on board. I’m not talking about doing it now...rather as he goes into the last year when this season is over. Give him the options....say £2m and a free transfer or the extra scrutiny. It may be enough for him to call time here.
 
No point in doing anything else other than sticking. On the other hand we could do the same thing again as we have done unpteen times and hope for a different outcome.

Until there is a new owner there is no point in doing anything else.
 
No point in doing anything else other than sticking. On the other hand we could do the same thing again as we have done unpteen times and hope for a different outcome.

Until there is a new owner there is no point in doing anything else.
What would that be mate?
 
I agree with most of this however his players were maybe 4th or 5th choice for the sake of numbers , yes many say why bother but we did need bodies in and they havent worked . Also agree he's persisting with tactics that arent working but will any tactic change mke a happeth of difference the 4 at the back didn't. We are going down regardless and if he doesnt walk I think We should see how he does 1st .
I wish I had your optimism mate; sadly Coleman has shown that he isn't capable of working under the current restrictions. Surely their's somebody out there who can.
 
Should be given a run at the start of next season to turn it around I reckon. He’s been dealt a nightmare hand with the squad he inherited and injuries. There’s going to be a big player turnaround for sure this summer and I think he deserves the chance to make the team his own.

If we’re struggling after 10-15 games nexts season then we review.
 
Absolute bullshit. I've said it time and time again that as the man at the top he holds ultimate responsibility.

But this mindset that "nothing will change" because of Short is total crap. Do you mean we will continue to drop like a stone regardless of who is the manager? If so, then lets not bother employing one then. Just get Bain to pull names out of a hat to pick the team.

The last three managers have been total failures. The one before that had the team in top half premier league form. The ones previous to him all had relative success. So, when you say "failing managers", what do you mean exactly?

Okay, going forward under Short, we may not get back into the premier league for a long time, but I refuse to accept that all we can expect is to be rooted to the bottom of the championship. Yes, he didn't back either manager this season, but plenty other managers in the championship got fuck all backing and are all above us.

Or situation is a culmination of many different things - overspending, Johnson being jailed, England getting beat of Iceland, not sacking Moyes, employing Grayson. I could go on....

Basically it's been a perfect storm, but Short is the man who has overseen it all. But right now, the blame for being rock bottom of the championship lies at the managers door.

Sorry but you're clueless, as long as Ellis Short own Sunderland we will be shite.

"may not get back into the premier league for a long time" :lol: change "may" for "definitely". If Short stays we are honestly more likely to be in League 2 than the Premier League.

We are unmanageable whilst Short owns us. It is impossible for a manager to succeed when the owner has got the club into a load of debt and has no interest anymore.
 
Sorry but you're clueless, as long as Ellis Short own Sunderland we will be shite.

"may not get back into the premier league for a long time" :lol: change "may" for "definitely". If Short stays we are honestly more likely to be in League 2 than the Premier League.

We are unmanageable whilst Short owns us. It is impossible for a manager to succeed when the owner has got the club into a load of debt and has no interest anymore.
Unmanageable :lol:

You are the clueless one. There's plenty clubs above us in the league who are higher on the "unmanageable" scale.

How did Bolton manage to get so far ahead of us, for example?
 
Unmanageable :lol:

You are the clueless one. There's plenty clubs above us in the league who are higher on the "unmanageable" scale.

How did Bolton manage to get so far ahead of us, for example?

Bolton are partly fan owned (I think?) so whilst they don't have a lot of money at least they have a board who want them to be successful.

Honestly there is no club in the division more unmanageable than us atm, I'd even say Short is the worst owner in the football league, cannot think of any worse? Oystons at Blackpool maybe?
 

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