SPOILER-tastic No Time To Die Discussion Thread

I think a spin off is a good idea, it's almost impossible to get big films signed off unless they're part of a "franchise" they've already heard of. Just didn't think it was what they'd do before another Bond. But thinking about it maybe they will, fine by me. I just always wondered why previous Bond films only ever mentioned other Double 0 agents either getting killed or not being someone they'd want on the mission instead of Bond. It made it seem like all the other agents were shit.
Or they just pandered to each 00 agent and made them feel like that. 007 probably walks out the office on his way to a mission in Moscow (played by Steve Gutenberg), then 008 walks in and M says that they’re the only person for the mission to Cuba cos that useless prick 007 is off on a waster mission.
Bond is the character, 007 is the codename in MI6. The character is dead so can't come back, somebody else could use the codename though (and have).

If a receptionist at work died and was replaced you wouldn't then say to the new one that you thought they were dead
Bond also married a lass in OHMSS and previously killed Blofeld in For Your Eyes Only.
 
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jacko100

Striker
Bond is the character, 007 is the codename in MI6. The character is dead so can't come back, somebody else could use the codename though (and have).

If a receptionist at work died and was replaced you wouldn't then say to the new one that you thought they were dead

I'm aware of that

However at the end of the film it says "James Bond will return" not 007, James Bond.

there is no way that bond wont be back.

yeah cause that never happens
 

Cheese n Ipa

Full Back
Broccoli said that new James Bond movies will never be on streaming and only on at the cinema. They could do parallel tv shows with other 00's and stuff, but it could get messy with the actual James Bond movies themselves. Need to stick with one movie every few years otherwise it will become a diluted mess with crossover stories and plot holes.
 

bobster999

Midfield
I'm aware of that

However at the end of the film it says "James Bond will return" not 007, James Bond.

there is no way that bond wont be back.

yeah cause that never happens


Aye I see what you mean. If that was Daniel Craig's own saga then I think they could bring him back as they're not a continuous storyline, just start another story with someone else.
 

errant

Striker
i left the cinema more confused then anything, bond is dead? how do you get out of that corner you've painted yourself into Barbara? its a different franchise to the others, he can't force-ghost himself back on screen or re-gen like a doctor... i don't see any outcome in the next film that will be satisfying.

The character is dead so can't come back, somebody else could use the codename though (and have).
that won't fly...
sorry to see Felix Leiter go, he's been a mainstay of Bond since the Connery days.
i was a bit upset at that, by the time the axe fell on bond i wasn't entirely buying the plot by then.
 
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i left the cinema more confused then anything, bond is dead? how do you get out of that corner you've painted yourself into Barbara? its a different franchise to the others, he can't force-ghost himself back on screen or re-gen like a doctor... i don't see any outcome in the next film that will be satisfying.


that won't fly...

i was a bit upset at that, by the time the axe fell on bond i wasn't entirely buying the plot by then.

To be fair, when Craig took over they started again as if none of the other Bond films had happened so they should be fine to do that again
Agree - there was no character development at all for him. Saw him for 2 minutes at the start, then 30 second snippets at the end with the worlds shortest fight.

Also, his name was basically Beelzebub McDevil
 
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i left the cinema more confused then anything, bond is dead? how do you get out of that corner you've painted yourself into Barbara? its a different franchise to the others, he can't force-ghost himself back on screen or re-gen like a doctor... i don't see any outcome in the next film that will be satisfying.


that won't fly...

i was a bit upset at that, by the time the axe fell on bond i wasn't entirely buying the plot by then.
Until the Craig films every story might as well be it’s own universe. Otherwise he’d be scarred to fuck and would now be about 98 years old.
 

errant

Striker
Until the Craig films every story might as well be it’s own universe. Otherwise he’d be scarred to fuck and would now be about 98 years old.
i suppose the only difference up till now was that the main character never died on screen, the plot holes you don't see or inconveniences are easily forgotten once bond has jumped off a cliff with a union jack parachute, like when he married Diana Rigg...
 
i suppose the only difference up till now was that the main character never died on screen, the plot holes you don't see or inconveniences are easily forgotten once bond has jumped off a cliff with a union jack parachute, like when he married Diana Rigg...
Aye.

Wor Tracy isn’t even mentioned as to the reason why he wants Blofeld dead in the next film.
 

Tex

Striker
For anyone who's seen the film (or doesn't care about having the plot spoiled for then), let's discuss the film on here, free to you about anything that happened including the ending.

Overall, I liked it, thought it was a very decent entry in the series and a good way for Craig to sign off. He's been a terrific Bond even when a couple of the films haven't been all that good. I thought the story was genuinely exciting, the action was a bit more low-key than you might expect but I liked that, not every blockbuster film needs to be Marvel or Fast and Furious.

Opening sequence: good stuff, handles the "links to the past" thing they're doing a lot better than Spectre did. I liked the way they tied it back to Lazenby and OHMSS. (And for proper Bond nerds, later they tied it back to Dalton with the 80s Aston which I liked, Craig is the true successor to him)

Bond theme: thought it was fine, certainly better than that Sam Smith dirge and the shambles they had for Quantum of Solace. Not a top Bond theme, and not the best of the Craig era (that's Chris Cornell), but did the job.

New characters: Lashana Lynch was good as another Double O agent who actually gets through a film instead of being killed off before the story gets going. Could perhaps have given her more to do but this was Bond's story. Ana de Armas was terrific as the CIA agent, slightly disappointed that they didn't bring her back for the final mission but it would have been a bit crowded if they had.

Villain: a bit meh, I thought. I like Rami Malek and he didn't do anything wrong, he was just a bit humdrum. Just your run of the mill psycho with a weapon of mass destruction and an island lair, didn't stand out like Silva or Le Chiffre. Obviously miles better than that wet fart from QoS or the mess they made of Blofeld in Spectre (although Blofeld was better here however briefly).

Killing off key characters: sorry to see Felix Leiter go, he's been a mainstay of Bond since the Connery days. I actually think it was a mistake. They obviously wanted to give Bond as much personal stakes and emotional resonance but there was already plenty of that. As for Bond himself, wow. It sort of makes sense at the end of Craig's tenure to give the character a proper send off and it worked well within the film. Perhaps it would have been too much of a shiny happy ending for him to just sail off into the sunset with Madeline and his new daughter. Cracking end to a great final mission on the island as well. But some people will no doubt hate it.

Speaking of his daughter, it was fine to introduce that to the story and it was well done and everything, but it caused a HUUUUUUUUGE plot hole. MI6 have supposedly been keeping an eye on her all this time in case she works for Spectre but they didn't notice her going off and having a baby, or do the maths and put two and two together about who the father is. Where the fuck was Madeline hiding her all that time?

The obvious question after that is what next for Bond. It says in the credits James Bond will return, because of course he will. They're not going to just drop a character who is the centre of the longest running franchise in film.

Two main possibilities as I see it. Firstly they could carry on, and have a new recruit to the Double 0 section who takes the name James Bond and 007 designation. Maybe in these days of social media accounts they need to give whole new identities to agents. Or they just reboot again. Craig became a Double 0 at the start of Casino so they left behind all the previous stories. Moore and Dalton were both reboots, less so Brosnan. The advantage of fully rebooting is you could get Leiter back, the advantage of carrying on with a new recruit is you can keep the existing characters like Nomi, Moneypenny etc. Or they could just keep them on and reboot like they did with Judi Dench.

My preference would be a.younger Bond this time, it wouldn't make sense to have an older Bond like Elba or Hardy when you're starting again from scratch. So my picks would be either Nicholas Hoult or Sope Dirisu. And to be more of a spy action thriller and less of an attempt to be a superhero film with insane stunts. Mission Impossible does that perfectly well already. And carry on with the idea of other Double 0 agents in the team.
Excellent summary Cockers and I agree with most of that.
I didn’t like Nomi at all - not attractive, weird shape, her inclusion felt forced. Ana de Armas was top drawer and I agree I wish they’d given her more to do.
Malek was an adult assassin when Swan was a kid but he’s only four years older in real life. Should have been more back story there as to his rise to power. They definitely should have made more explicit the Noh mask, Doctor No and NO Time To Die connection. His evil plan with a DNA viral type disease was just silly. Was it like Stromberg in TSWLM or Drax in MR? The world is full of shit so I’m gonna kill everyone?
Poison garden was not developed either, a nod to the novel of YOLT.
The end reminded me of Into Thin Air where they patched the frost bitten dying trip leader back to his wife in New Zealand so they could pick out a name for their unborn child before he dies. Quite emotional al and exceptionally so for a Bond film. Can you imagine Moore there? “I’ll miss you daaaaaahling!”
.
One of the reasons I love CR is that it keeps a step or two away from the cliche of Bond having to infiltrate the villain’s hideout, with the villain being a megalomaniac Dr Evil who wants to run / ruin the world. This film went off the boil when it returned to this old cliche. From the point where they’re in the giant transport plane with Q and fly off in that gadget plane thingy (Brosnan and Halle Berry in DAD) it all went very formulaic.
Some of the gripes outlined in the Thor’d post above are legit.

As for the future … they’ve made some horrendous decisions in the past most especially during the Moore era but that was a long time ago and they’ve got a lot more right than wrong during the Craig era so I have to trust that the future is in safe hands. I foresee a self-contained story arc kinda like what Nolan did with Batman which more or less ignores everything that has gone before and tells its own story. In a way that’s what they did with Craig from green agent in CR onwards. I like the actors who play M, Q and Moneypenny so it would be sad if they don’t return but understandable. Holding over Judi Dench from Brosnan to Craig was a weird one but it worked somehow.
Gutted for Felix. Didn’t like how he wasn’t in the last two so chuffed to see him back. Jeffrey Wright has been excellent - it’s a part that was criminally overlooked in the past and they finally gave him something to do (with the same actor) during the Craig era.
How did they find Bond when he was floating in a dingy after the CIA oil rig thingy sunk? Bit of a plot hole there.
 
Until the Craig films every story might as well be it’s own universe. Otherwise he’d be scarred to fuck and would now be about 98 years old.

The Ian Fleming novels had continuity between missions. Not just Felix Leiter and other recurring characters, but e.g Quarrel is in the 2nd Bond book Live and Let Die and they become friends, and they work together again in Dr No where their past is acknowledged. From Russia with Love takes place directly after Diamonds Are Forever and mentions Bond having continued his relationship with Tiffany Case, but it didn't work From Russia With Love ends with Bond wounded and poisoned by Klebb's last ditch attack and the next book starts with him convalescing. You Only Live Twice comes straight after OHMSS and Bond is still a mess after the death of his wife.
 

Dave Herbal

Striker
i left the cinema more confused then anything, bond is dead? how do you get out of that corner you've painted yourself into Barbara? its a different franchise to the others, he can't force-ghost himself back on screen or re-gen like a doctor... i don't see any outcome in the next film that will be satisfying.


that won't fly...

i was a bit upset at that, by the time the axe fell on bond i wasn't entirely buying the plot by then.
You just reboot the whole thing and pretend none of it happened. Movie audiences won’t care.
 

Tex

Striker
Broccoli said that new James Bond movies will never be on streaming and only on at the cinema. They could do parallel tv shows with other 00's and stuff, but it could get messy with the actual James Bond movies themselves. Need to stick with one movie every few years otherwise it will become a diluted mess with crossover stories and plot holes.
Spot on. There’s a ton of money to be made in creating a ‘universe’ but I hope they stick with what they’re good at and don’t over extend.
 
Excellent summary Cockers and I agree with most of that.
I didn’t like Nomi at all - not attractive, weird shape, her inclusion felt forced. Ana de Armas was top drawer and I agree I wish they’d given her more to do.
Malek was an adult assassin when Swan was a kid but he’s only four years older in real life. Should have been more back story there as to his rise to power. They definitely should have made more explicit the Noh mask, Doctor No and NO Time To Die connection. His evil plan with a DNA viral type disease was just silly. Was it like Stromberg in TSWLM or Drax in MR? The world is full of shit so I’m gonna kill everyone?
Poison garden was not developed either, a nod to the novel of YOLT.
The end reminded me of Into Thin Air where they patched the frost bitten dying trip leader back to his wife in New Zealand so they could pick out a name for their unborn child before he dies. Quite emotional al and exceptionally so for a Bond film. Can you imagine Moore there? “I’ll miss you daaaaaahling!”
.
One of the reasons I love CR is that it keeps a step or two away from the cliche of Bond having to infiltrate the villain’s hideout, with the villain being a megalomaniac Dr Evil who wants to run / ruin the world. This film went off the boil when it returned to this old cliche. From the point where they’re in the giant transport plane with Q and fly off in that gadget plane thingy (Brosnan and Halle Berry in DAD) it all went very formulaic.
Some of the gripes outlined in the Thor’d post above are legit.

As for the future … they’ve made some horrendous decisions in the past most especially during the Moore era but that was a long time ago and they’ve got a lot more right than wrong during the Craig era so I have to trust that the future is in safe hands. I foresee a self-contained story arc kinda like what Nolan did with Batman which more or less ignores everything that has gone before and tells its own story. In a way that’s what they did with Craig from green agent in CR onwards. I like the actors who play M, Q and Moneypenny so it would be sad if they don’t return but understandable. Holding over Judi Dench from Brosnan to Craig was a weird one but it worked somehow.
Gutted for Felix. Didn’t like how he wasn’t in the last two so chuffed to see him back. Jeffrey Wright has been excellent - it’s a part that was criminally overlooked in the past and they finally gave him something to do (with the same actor) during the Craig era.
How did they find Bond when he was floating in a dingy after the CIA oil rig thingy sunk? Bit of a plot hole there.

Sterling stuff as always Tex. Yes, the plot has more holes than a world record crochet attempt
what WAS his name?

wad

Lyutsifer Safin
 
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Son of Stan

Striker
I thought Rami Malek was a bit tedious tbh. I would have loved to see more Moneypenny and Q, I'd certainly be up for a film with Q partnered up with her as they are both excellent actors, underused, and yes, I have a soft spot for Ben Whishaw (he has sphynx cats, of course he does!)

I'm not sure where Bond can go. Feels too soon to reboot it. I'd like a stylish rerurn to the 60s era for an origins type thing, but can't see that happening. I did come out thinking that may well be my last Bond as I'm possibly going to be unhappy with what/who comes next.
 

Tex

Striker
I thought Rami Malek was a bit tedious tbh. I would have loved to see more Moneypenny and Q, I'd certainly be up for a film with Q partnered up with her as they are both excellent actors, underused, and yes, I have a soft spot for Ben Whishaw (he has sphynx cats, of course he does!)

I'm not sure where Bond can go. Feels too soon to reboot it. I'd like a stylish rerurn to the 60s era for an origins type thing, but can't see that happening. I did come out thinking that may well be my last Bond as I'm possibly going to be unhappy with what/who comes next.
Malik looked like he was channelling Donald Sutherland as Oddball in Kelly’s Heroes. I was half expecting him to suddenly go “woof woof woof! That’s my other dog impression!”

Fair comments about Moneypenny and Q but at least they’ve been given more to do than the usual flirtatious banter outside M’s office and stern demonstration of the gadgets in this series.

When I saw Q’s cat I immediately thought they were having a laugh with us and it’s really Dr. Evil’s Mister Bigglesworth. You never can tell since they nicked the sub plot of Spectre from Austin Powers. “You know they come with fur now!” Good line for Bond. I don’t really go in for the smart arse comments. People who grew up with the Moore era think they’re integral to the series but it’s not supposed to be a comedy. They get it much more spot on with the sardonic but grudging respect that Bond has for Q. Completely different personalities but in today’s world Bond knows he has to rely on back up from the geeks even if it’s not his forte. Lots of people don’t realise that the reason for the sarcy comments in the first place was to lighten the mood so they didn’t get hit with an X rating for violence, not because the character is a budding stand up comic. Still had a smirk at “that really blew his mind!”
 

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