So, compared with the rest of the division, how's our debt?

Grumpy Old Man

Grumpy Old Man

Striker
It's been suggested that, on the basis of two of last year's promoted teams having higher debt than us, we're somehow on a level with the rest of the Championship. Here's the bad news - we're much worse, particularly on external debt, than pretty much everyone. These are the numbers I've managed to get from each club's latest filed accounts (mostly 2016, though a couple have filed for 2017 already. Three numbers for each club - total, related party debt, and external debt. All figures are £m.

Sunderland 137.3, 69.4, 67.9
Cardiff 101, 101, 0
Middlesbrough 98.6, 93.6, 5
Ipswich 88.2, 88.2, 0
Hull 81.3, 60, 21.3
Notts F 74.2, 57.4, 16.8
Reading 71.1, 41.9, 29.2
Bristol City 70.1, 17.6, 43.7
QPR 46.9, 35.6, 11.3
Aston Villa 45.6, 11.1, 35.5
Brentford 37.1, 37.1, 0
Fulham 36.4, 36.4, 0
PNE 30.7, 30.7, 0
Bolton 27.2, 27.2, 0
Millwall 18.6, 18.6, 0
Sheff Wed 17.8, 17.8, 0
Leeds 16.6, 15, 1.6
Birmingham City 13.5, 0, 13.5
Barnsley 7.4, o, 7.4
Sheff Utd 4.2, 4.2, 0
Wolves 4.2, 0, 4.2
Derby 3.6, 0.3, 3
Norwich 2.7, 0, 2.7
Burton 0, 0, 0

Looking at filings, quite a few clubs are capitalising loans and issuing shares to comply with FFP.

It seems pretty clear to me that our debt levels, particularly the external number, are and will remain a constraint on investment for the foreseeable.
 


Grumpy Old Man said:
It's been suggested that, on the basis of two of last year's promoted teams having higher debt than us, we're somehow on a level with the rest of the Championship. Here's the bad news - we're much worse, particularly on external debt, than pretty much everyone. These are the numbers I've managed to get from each club's latest filed accounts (mostly 2016, though a couple have filed for 2017 already. Three numbers for each club - total, related party debt, and external debt. All figures are £m.

Sunderland 137.3, 69.4, 67.9
Cardiff 101, 101, 0
Middlesbrough 98.6, 93.6, 5
Ipswich 88.2, 88.2, 0
Hull 81.3, 60, 21.3
Notts F 74.2, 57.4, 16.8
Reading 71.1, 41.9, 29.2
Bristol City 70.1, 17.6, 43.7
QPR 46.9, 35.6, 11.3
Aston Villa 45.6, 11.1, 35.5
Brentford 37.1, 37.1, 0
Fulham 36.4, 36.4, 0
PNE 30.7, 30.7, 0
Bolton 27.2, 27.2, 0
Millwall 18.6, 18.6, 0
Sheff Wed 17.8, 17.8, 0
Leeds 16.6, 15, 1.6
Birmingham City 13.5, 0, 13.5
Barnsley 7.4, o, 7.4
Sheff Utd 4.2, 4.2, 0
Wolves 4.2, 0, 4.2
Derby 3.6, 0.3, 3
Norwich 2.7, 0, 2.7
Burton 0, 0, 0

Looking at filings, quite a few clubs are capitalising loans and issuing shares to comply with FFP.

It seems pretty clear to me that our debt levels, particularly the external number, are and will remain a constraint on investment for the foreseeable.
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Always find your posts very interesting, and it's good to know, but by God you never bring any good news, do you?
 
Again, that's all fine and dandy but our income reduces over the next two and a half years to the point where the debt is unserviceable. There had to be a plan to get back into the PL and it wasn't in place last summer and still doesn't appear to be in place for Coleman. Death by a thousand cuts.
 
But as you say, the majority is based on old data and doesn’t take into account the cost cutting measures of the last 18 months or so.

I still maintain that the risk of missing out on tv money or parachute payments means we should have invested more than we did. Next year parachute payments reduce and we don’t have a Pickford or PVA to sell. Any debt we reduce this season is going back on next.
 
How the fuck are Ipswich in so much debt? You can see why the rest of the clubs that high are as they’ve either been in the prem or spent big to get in the prem in the past five or six seasons, Ipswich haven’t spent much money of note in the past few seasons to have that much debt,
 
chunkylover53 said:
Banks I would assume

I would be surprised if amounts owed to clubs for players was included in the debt line

But the OP will know.
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I've excluded player creditors, even though UEFA includes it in their debt measures. In conventional accounting, these are trade creditors. From memory (I only did this exercise this morning), our player creditor figure of £31m at 31/7/16 is also one of, if not the, highest in the division.
 
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Mackemansj1 said:
How the fuck are Ipswich in so much debt? You can see why the rest of the clubs that high are as they’ve either been in the prem or spent big to get in the prem in the past five or six seasons, Ipswich haven’t spent much money of note in the past few seasons to have that much debt,
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They have one of the highest wage percentages in the division - well over 100%. Their debt is basically accumulated trading losses.
 
Grumpy Old Man said:
I've excluded player creditors, even though UEFA includes it in their debt measures. In conventional accounting, these are trade creditors. From memory (I only did this exercise this morning), our player creditor figure of £31m at 31/7/16 is also one of, if not the, highest in the division.
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Any idea how much is owed to us?
 

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