Short badly advised again


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You're right mate, I know but we really can't afford to get this one wrong
This will be a bit rambling but have patience...

Tin hat on...

The first thing to be decided is a definition of success or failure.

Obviously promotion would be success but given that you have a squad that needs both reducing (because of wages) and extending (lots of games) maybe 7 or 8th place would do as a step on the way back. The squad needs to be turned into a team and the new manager and his (hopefully new) backroom unit need time to get a grip on the clubs culture and current attitude...just walking in and saying "okay lads, now we're going to do this" probably won't work.

Whoever gets the job is going to need time and drawing comparisons to my lot up the road (or anyone else) won't be helpful. The job ahead is huge and shouldn't be underestimated. Further, the perceived unattractiveness of the NE England won't help in manager/player recruitment. The turning of the squad into a team will be a huge job and every day that you are managerless only increases the difficulties ahead and the consequent damping down of the level of ambition in defining success or failure. The less time the coaching staff have, the more they have to rely on the existing scouting network (which hasn't really covered itself in glory recently...).

You also need a manager who can change his tactics, both within a match and within a season. Once everybody has figured out how you play, they'll go old school and close down all the available space. This turns matches into attritional grinding, and one goal victories are more than good enough.

What would I do if I had just bought SAFC...?
Try to appoint Roger Schmidt, most recently of Bayer Leverkusen (GER). I'd give him a three year contract and expect him to bring in his own back room staff. He won't be cheap but he'd bring a new perspective with him. Furthermore anyone who has travelled in NW Germany will se industrial and climate similarities to NE England.
And I would do it as fast as possible...
 
So then, the inexperienced have the advantage of not being able to be judged on their failures, which are still all yet to be had.

And 'failure' at one particular club, at one particular point in time, with one particular set of players is so invariably instructive that that manager cannot ever be expected to succeed at a different club, at a different time and with a different set of players.

What happened last week, or last month, or last year is not a guarantee of what will happen next week/month/year. At best, it might be indicative. The fact that a person didn't win the Lottery jackpot last week does not mean that they won't win it next week.

There is also no rationale that dictates - "We've had a Scottish manager and he failed, therefore all Scottish managers will fail". Conversely, there is obviously no relationship between Paulo Di Canio's failure and Conte's success, by virtue of their shared nationality.

I'm more interested in any prospective manager's strength of character, their intelligence and their vision and ideas on how things should be done in the future. I'm not bothered about whether they will have to rely on an interpreter, or whether they will ever win the Perrier award for comedy, or whether their voice is a dreary monotone.

The only test is - Can they, given the correct financial support, identify, recruit and work with a squad of players so that it is motivated and organised and talented enough to win football matches on a regular basis ?
Great post. Too many causal inferences bandied about that don't take into account the thousands of variables and other noise that make each situation unique. Much like the 'Moyes did well at Everton so he'll do well here' line, success/failure at one team at one point in time is not indicative that the same will happen again at another team at another point in time.
 
He's appointed people who supposedly know what they are doing Bruce, O'Neill, Poyet Advokaat Allardyce and Moyes - I'm not sure what managers people would want that he hasn't tried.
Most of them were proven experienced managers, yet failed here. So we assume they are all poor managers now or something else?
 
It doesn't matter who it is, it will just be another short term fix. The manager will have to look at the immediate and be dammed with the future.

Best we can hope for is someone the fans will be onside with from day 1 in the hope we gain some momentum.
 
This will be a bit rambling but have patience...

Tin hat on...

The first thing to be decided is a definition of success or failure.

Obviously promotion would be success but given that you have a squad that needs both reducing (because of wages) and extending (lots of games) maybe 7 or 8th place would do as a step on the way back. The squad needs to be turned into a team and the new manager and his (hopefully new) backroom unit need time to get a grip on the clubs culture and current attitude...just walking in and saying "okay lads, now we're going to do this" probably won't work.

Whoever gets the job is going to need time and drawing comparisons to my lot up the road (or anyone else) won't be helpful. The job ahead is huge and shouldn't be underestimated. Further, the perceived unattractiveness of the NE England won't help in manager/player recruitment. The turning of the squad into a team will be a huge job and every day that you are managerless only increases the difficulties ahead and the consequent damping down of the level of ambition in defining success or failure. The less time the coaching staff have, the more they have to rely on the existing scouting network (which hasn't really covered itself in glory recently...).

You also need a manager who can change his tactics, both within a match and within a season. Once everybody has figured out how you play, they'll go old school and close down all the available space. This turns matches into attritional grinding, and one goal victories are more than good enough.

What would I do if I had just bought SAFC...?
Try to appoint Roger Schmidt, most recently of Bayer Leverkusen (GER). I'd give him a three year contract and expect him to bring in his own back room staff. He won't be cheap but he'd bring a new perspective with him. Furthermore anyone who has travelled in NW Germany will se industrial and climate similarities to NE England.
And I would do it as fast as possible...

7th or 8th, don't be so belittling. It's all wishful thinking on your part. It would suit you if we are in the championship for years to come. We'll be back up next season.
 
You want someone who has good experience in the championship and maybe some from the premier league. Knows what type of players is needed, how to save them fitness-wise for a 46 game season. Not someone who has managed to do ok in the Scottish league.
Tin hat on but you've just described Colin Wanker and Mick McCarthy
 
Most of them were proven experienced managers, yet failed here. So we assume they are all poor managers now or something else?

Don't know what the answer is to that, the point I'm making was in response to Bears comment that you can't criticise Short for his appointments but for different reasons they haven't worked.
 
Don't know what the answer is to that, the point I'm making was in response to Bears comment that you can't criticise Short for his appointments but for different reasons they haven't worked.
I agree. Or is it the failure for the same reasons? Poor investment or lack of it? We spent money some times but badly.
 
I agree. Or is it the failure for the same reasons? Poor investment or lack of it? We spent money some times but badly.

My feeling is that Short should have had more control on how we spent the money - managers bringing in between 10 and 13 players each year was a recipe for disaster. The number of loan signings have contributed dramatically to this. If each year we had spent the £30-£40 million on 2-3 decent players we would have a decent team by now.
 
FFS... In fairness to Short/Bain and their hired help, McInnes is a manager on an upwards curve, irrelevant of where he is plying his trade. You can only manage within the parameter of your environment.

At Bristol City he went through a blip and they just got shot, probably prematurely. Had they given him some time, I'm sure he would have reversed there fortunes and going forward improved them ten fold.

If I had a preference though, it would be Wagner or Jokanovic, BUT... if it's McInnes then I'll not be despondent at all, wish him all the luck and get behind him 100%.
 
I can't believe people are even mentioning promotion. We will be very lucky to stay up. The squad will have around 8 senior players in it...and we have no money to invest. Any manager that comes will be on the cheap and generally shit....what on earth have we got to offer at the moment?
 
My feeling is that Short should have had more control on how we spent the money - managers bringing in between 10 and 13 players each year was a recipe for disaster. The number of loan signings have contributed dramatically to this. If each year we had spent the £30-£40 million on 2-3 decent players we would have a decent team by now.
TBH, until the last few seasons you can't really blame Short. He's given managers money and he's had to change managers when it looked like we would otherwise go down. Additionally, each manager who has come in hasn't had any time to really plan so loans have been necessary. It looked like we were heading in the right direction with Bruce for a while and he had a great opportunity to kick on after we finished 10th, but we sold Henderson and Bruce bought shite with the money. Added to this was the Gyan fiasco. All the managers since then have been panic decisions
 
The truth.
Just wish we had someone in charge who had a knowledge of world football and could think outside the box and come up with a Warner or Silva type. Problem for me will be whoever turns will be crippled before they start by the financial mess the club is in. Hope whoever comes knows the truth before they start.
Paolo Bento.

There has been lots more. On the reverse side people like terry Butcher and Neil Lennon flopped down here and were fairly successful in Scotland. Butcher failed in England went to Inverness and Hibs and was generally successful. His two jobs in England at Brentford and Exeter were short lived disasters.
Four jobs.
 
TBH, until the last few seasons you can't really blame Short. He's given managers money and he's had to change managers when it looked like we would otherwise go down. Additionally, each manager who has come in hasn't had any time to really plan so loans have been necessary. It looked like we were heading in the right direction with Bruce for a while and he had a great opportunity to kick on after we finished 10th, but we sold Henderson and Bruce bought shite with the money. Added to this was the Gyan fiasco. All the managers since then have been panic decisions

The Loan signings were a problem under Bruce but your right each manager since has been a reaction without a plan - probably why we looked so happily on Allerdyce being here last summer.
 
Admittedly I know very little about him but was he really a massive failure at Bristol? He kept them up unexpectedly in his his first season. They had a poor squad even for that level made poorer by the sale of Bolasie and they had to scrape around for free transfers and not many would jump at the chance to play for a team who was expected to go down. They finished further from safety than when he left aswell.
So he took on a poor squad made poorer by losing their better player(s) and they were even worse by the time he left? Sounds a perfect fit. BHH.
 
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