[roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusions


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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Mr Short has been shocked at the outlay for men kicking a ball around maybe !!

I doubt that very much given the numbers thrown around in US professional sport. They dwarf those in football, for the most part.

I remember a kid coming out of college, having a good season in the NFL then demanding a $40 million a year deal.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

It isn't a 10% tax rate for only former Sunderland players though, is it? So if that is the draw then why is it not drawing players of a similar ilk from other clubs?

As for Bardsley, his agent said this in December 2009:



Bardsley wanted parity. He wanted more coin, and in December 2009 had he really deserved it? Within a year, he had it though.

I repeat: how do you know that? He got a new contract. Whether he got more money - or more importantly parity with our top players - is completely open to question.
 
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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

I repeat: how do you know that? He got a new contract. Whether he got more money - or more importantly parity with our top players - is completely open to question.

Al bet Mr Fishpaste anything that he didn't. ;)
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

It just adds more fuel to the fire as far as I am concerned. Why have players at their peak playing in England who wanted to move to Turkey pretty much exclusively Sunderland ones?

Just our strict pay structure? Do we not protect our talent from agents as well as other clubs? Do we not do enough, once they are here, to sell the club's vision and ambition to them?

Plenty other explanations with far more weight behind them than believing we were just unlucky to come across a crop of mercenaries in one go. There has to be a connection somewhere and it is worth asking what it is. But that's just my opinion.

I can't believe you've been reduced to this in order to support your change of heart. We've had one, yes, one, player who was approached by a Turkish side and there's no evidence whatsoever that the player in question was genuinely interested in the move. He may have used it as a bargaining tool but even though he eventually jumped ship he still didn't end up there. Cana went home basically. As for Gyan, if the rumours of his wages are true would you really expect him to stick around? He would have left almost any club in this country for that sort of money. Cringe worthy stuff Captain, I'm disappointed.
 
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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

I can't believe you've been reduced to this in order to support your change of heart. We've had one, yes, one, player who was approached by a Turkish side and there's no evidence whatsoever that the player in question was genuinely interested in the move. He may have used it as a bargaining tool but even though he eventually jumped ship he still didn't end up there. Cana went home basically. As for Gyan, if the rumours of his wages are true would you really expect him to stick around? He would have left almost any club in this country for that sort of money. Cringe worthy stuff Captain, I'm disappointed.

Can you name me another club who is offering Premier League football who are losing their top players to this kind of move (i.e. to lesser leagues or clubs lower in the division) with his kind of regularity? If you can, then there is no issue here and I'll have to have myself a re-think. If you can't, then it is time questions have to be asked as to why it keeps happening to us and why other clubs can prevent such transfers yet we can't.

It may be an innocent reason or something trivial. I don't know. I was merely speculating and drawing my own conclusions. But I am starting to suggest that there is enough weight of evidence starting to stack that suggests something more worrying is going on.

I repeat: how do you know that? He got a new contract. Whether he got more money - or more importantly parity with our top players - is completely open to question.

Well he got a new contract and it was widely reported when he had his run in with the law that he was on £30,000+ a week. Considering we signed him when he was rookie straight out of Man Utd's reserves and he was moaning about his wages, I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that he got a recent pay rise.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Can you name me another club who is offering Premier League football who are losing their top players to this kind of move (i.e. to lesser leagues or clubs lower in the division) with his kind of regularity? If you can, then there is no issue here and I'll have to have myself a re-think. If you can't, then it is time questions have to be asked as to why it keeps happening to us and why other clubs can prevent such transfers yet we can't.

It may be an innocent reason or something trivial. I don't know. I was merely speculating and drawing my own conclusions. But I am starting to suggest that there is enough weight of evidence starting to stack that suggests something more worrying is going on.



Well he got a new contract and it was widely reported when he had his run in with the law that he was on £30,000+ a week. Considering we signed him when he was rookie straight out of Man Utd's reserves and he was moaning about his wages, I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that he got a recent pay rise.

Wouldn't surprise me if he got a raise. However, you seem to be implying that Bardsley got what we wouldn't give Gyan which is something you can't know. Indeed, coming out of United I'd be surprised if he wasn't already on £25k p/w+ any way.

As for the first para, you have at times implied that the blame lies with Bruce and then at other times suggested its to do with stringent club policies. Forgive the pun but it seems that you are fishing. At a time when there are plenty of good solid reasons to doubt in Steve Bruce, it does seem odd that you are fixating on one of the most blatant acts of footballer avarice we've seen as the one to top them all. Only my take and all that, though.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Wouldn't surprise me if he got a raise. However, you seem to be implying that Bardsley got what we wouldn't give Gyan which is something you can't know. Indeed, coming out of United I'd be surprised if he wasn't already on £25k p/w+ any way.

As for the first para, you have at times implied that the blame lies with Bruce and then at other times suggested its to do with stringent club policies. Forgive the pun but it seems that you are fishing. At a time when there are plenty of good solid reasons to doubt in Steve Bruce, it does seem odd that you are fixating on one of the most blatant acts of footballer avarice we've seen as the one to top them all. Only my take and all that, though.

Before you were saying I was too "dog with a bone" and not open minded enough. Now you are saying that by being willing to explore possibilities other than the one I personally suspect I am fishing. Like I say, I can't win.

Remember I am not a reporter or a journalist. I am not writing something factual or trying to push an agenda. It's a weekly opinion piece. No more, no less. So I gave an opinion and tried to explain how I arrived at it. That's it. If you don't agree with the opinion, then fair enough. I am not trying to tell people what is going on and asking them to believe me. It is more a case of 'this is what I think is going on - what do yous reckon?'.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Can you name me another club who is offering Premier League football who are losing their top players to this kind of move (i.e. to lesser leagues or clubs lower in the division) with his kind of regularity? If you can, then there is no issue here and I'll have to have myself a re-think. If you can't, then it is time questions have to be asked as to why it keeps happening to us and why other clubs can prevent such transfers yet we can't.

It may be an innocent reason or something trivial. I don't know. I was merely speculating and drawing my own conclusions. But I am starting to suggest that there is enough weight of evidence starting to stack that suggests something more worrying is going on.

I don't need to as it's an isolated instance. That's precisely what makes your blog so transparent.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Before you were saying I was too "dog with a bone" and not open minded enough. Now you are saying that by being willing to explore possibilities other than the one I personally suspect I am fishing. Like I say, I can't win.

Remember I am not a reporter or a journalist. I am not writing something factual or trying to push an agenda. It's a weekly opinion piece. No more, no less. So I gave an opinion and tried to explain how I arrived at it. That's it. If you don't agree with the opinion, then fair enough. I am not trying to tell people what is going on and asking them to believe me. It is more a case of 'this is what I think is going on - what do yous reckon?'.

Woah fella. Calm down. I was just having a bit of a poke in the first post as you do have a tendency to grab onto things and not want to put them down. No harm meant.

As for the opinions, fair do's. I only post shite on here and wouldn't have time or energy to put stuff in a blog. I just got the impression from the blog and follow-ups that you'd started off down a road, hit a cul-de-sac and were casting around for a way to keep on the same tone. Just seemed a bit confused to start off saying that Gyan should take no blame, it's all Bruce and then switch tack to talk about SAFC not paying the going rate. Seemed a lot of dancing to avoid conceding that it might just be down to a greedy footballer after all.

The articles are a good read. Looking forward to another rant tomorrow (?) - even though I suspect you'll have me gnashing again.:lol:
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

I don't need to as it's an isolated instance. That's precisely what makes your blog so transparent.

3 important players forcing their own moves out of the club in just over a year isn't isolated. You can believe it is if you want and they were all for vastly different reasons or whatever, but it is becoming too much of a regular occurrence for me to brush it under the carpet personally. For whatever reason, we are struggling to keep our top players happy and settled. That much is apparent.

Woah fella. Calm down. I was just having a bit of a poke in the first post as you do have a tendency to grab onto things and not want to put them down. No harm meant.

As for the opinions, fair do's. I only post shite on here and wouldn't have time or energy to put stuff in a blog. I just got the impression from the blog and follow-ups that you'd started off down a road, hit a cul-de-sac and were casting around for a way to keep on the same tone. Just seemed a bit confused to start off saying that Gyan should take no blame, it's all Bruce and then switch tack to talk about SAFC not paying the going rate. Seemed a lot of dancing to avoid conceding that it might just be down to a greedy footballer after all.

The articles are a good read. Looking forward to another rant tomorrow (?) - even though I suspect you'll have me gnashing again.:lol:

This is the thing... it MIGHT just be down to a greedy footballer. It might be down to just the bad fortune of three greedy footballers all just happening to be here at around the same time. I'm not ruling it out. I also would never seek to absolve Gyan of all blame. Clearly he played a role in all this. I just think there is sufficient reason now to seriously question the club's role in all this because as tempting as it is to put our heads in the sound and play the injured party, we can't really get away from the fact that it keeps happening to us.

There is another one tomorrow, aye.

I'll tell you something, though... having been the target of both sides of the Bruce debate now, the vehement pro-Bruce lot pack a considerably bigger punch. :lol:
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

3 important players forcing their own moves out of the club in just over a year isn't isolated. You can believe it is if you want and they were all for vastly different reasons or whatever, but it is becoming too much of a regular occurrence for me to brush it under the carpet personally. For whatever reason, we are struggling to keep our top players happy and settled. That much is apparent.

To Turkey?

The pussy whipped fucker pissed off home with his tail between his legs, Bent left for a bigger club and more money and Gyan went for a King's ransom. Not one single surprise there and you know it. To describe it as a regular occurrence is an abuse of language. We're up there with Wigan and the like and we'll lose any player that shows promise, that's just the way it is.

I can't be arsed to even argue the point with you. Transparent as fuck Captain, why not just hold your hands up and say you jumped ship because the tide was too strong for you. To nail it on something as self explanatory as Gyan f***ing off is a joke.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

To Turkey?

The pussy whipped fucker pissed off home with his tail between his legs, Bent left for a bigger club and more money and Gyan went for a King's ransom. Not one single surprise there and you know it. To describe it as a regular occurrence is an abuse of language. We're up there with Wigan and the like and we'll lose any player that shows promise, that's just the way it is.

I can't be arsed to even argue the point with you. Transparent as fuck Captain, why not just hold your hands up and say you jumped ship because the tide was too strong for you. To nail it on something as self explanatory as Gyan f***ing off is a joke.

Really? You decide to get all abusive and throw around personal insults the second I dare ask a question or two or deviate from your own opinion just a touch? Christ, and you have the nerve to label me as 'disappointing'?

Have I jumped ship? I wasn't aware it was a case of entrenching in a position and stubbornly sticking to them no matter what. A third failure in little over a year to manage and focus an important player before seeing them depart in a strange move has led me to asking some questions and starting to wonder why Bruce is unable to keep his top players. There is no 'jumping ship' about it. Just honest and objective and considered observation and calling it how I see it. When fresh evidence comes to light, it's worth considering.

So sorry if you thought I was on your little team or whatever, but my views are my own, not what this place demands them to be based on silly and petty arguments with strangers. 'Disappointing'.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Really? You decide to get all abusive and throw around personal insults the second I dare ask a question or two or deviate from your own opinion just a touch? Christ, and you have the nerve to label me as 'disappointing'?

Have I jumped ship? I wasn't aware it was a case of entrenching in a position and stubbornly sticking to them no matter what. A third failure in little over a year to manage and focus an important player before seeing them depart in a strange move has led me to asking some questions and starting to wonder why Bruce is unable to keep his top players. There is no 'jumping ship' about it. Just honest and objective and considered observation and calling it how I see it. When fresh evidence comes to light, it's worth considering.

So sorry if you thought I was on your little team or whatever, but my views are my own, not what this place demands them to be based on silly and petty arguments with strangers. 'Disappointing'.

Personal insults? On my little team? How arrogant are you? I was disappointed because you've tended to be considered and rational. I never once imagined you were in some way sworn to follow a party line let alone a fellow poster. I posted what I did because IMO it's patently f***ing obvious what's going on with you. Mind, this latest post takes it a step further. Now you're an established "writer" I can understand why you're seeking to protect your journalistic integrity.

At almost any other club the Gyan business would have seen bloggers rallying the troops, gathering around the club flag and decrying the modern footballers obsession with money. Fuck him, we don''t need him and all that. What do you do, turn turtle and go with the flow. pretend there's something different about our club losing a couple of good players to the lure of money in order to cover your sudden about turn. I'm not following a party line here, that's my opinion.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Can you name me another club who is offering Premier League football who are losing their top players to this kind of move (i.e. to lesser leagues or clubs lower in the division) with his kind of regularity? If you can, then there is no issue here and I'll have to have myself a re-think. If you can't, then it is time questions have to be asked as to why it keeps happening to us and why other clubs can prevent such transfers yet we can't.

It may be an innocent reason or something trivial. I don't know. I was merely speculating and drawing my own conclusions. But I am starting to suggest that there is enough weight of evidence starting to stack that suggests something more worrying is going on.



Well he got a new contract and it was widely reported when he had his run in with the law that he was on £30,000+ a week. Considering we signed him when he was rookie straight out of Man Utd's reserves and he was moaning about his wages, I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that he got a recent pay rise.

Can you name one other club in the league who may of had a club come in and offer one of their players £200,000 a week in wages?? (outside of top 4/5)
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Personal insults? On my little team? How arrogant are you? I was disappointed because you've tended to be considered and rational. I never once imagined you were in some way sworn to follow a party line let alone a fellow poster. I posted what I did because IMO it's patently f***ing obvious what's going on with you. Mind, this latest post takes it a step further. Now you're an established "writer" I can understand why you're seeking to protect your journalistic integrity.

At almost any other club the Gyan business would have seen bloggers rallying the troops, gathering around the club flag and decrying the modern footballers obsession with money. Fuck him, we don''t need him and all that. What do you do, turn turtle and go with the flow. pretend there's something different about our club losing a couple of good players to the lure of money in order to cover your sudden about turn. I'm not following a party line here, that's my opinion.

Well, I don't have any journalistic anything, because I am NOT an established writer. And nor are bloggers some kind of free propagandists mindlessly producing spin to sweeten the fans. When Bent left, I did exactly what you say I should be doing above. It was how I felt, and how I read the situation. Now after a repeat dose, I am less comfortable in writing it all off as some kind of 'woe is us' screwing over by a player. I don't believe that to be the case, so I didn't write it. Instead, I think a pattern of failure to manage, settle, and protect our biggest assets is emerging which isn't present at other clubs. You disagree with it. Fine. Fair play.

On the wider issue, since it is you who decided, upon disagreeing with me, to instantaneously take to accusing me of having an agenda and deciding to frame your disagreement with my opinion with personal insults, I'd suggest you should be more careful about who you accuse of - how did you put it - 'go with the flow'.

As for being considered and rational, well have I not been? I have considered plenty of factors as stated in the blog. Finance, why it is happening almost exclusively to us with such regularity, the club's strength in dealing with such matters etc. I have called into question Bruce's ability to manage players of this calibre and I have shown my workings. That's all. That conclusion may well be wrong, but it certainly isn't lacking in consideration. The whole point of opinion pieces is to ask the question.

Can you name one other club in the league who may of had a club come in and offer one of their players £200,000 a week in wages?? (outside of top 4/5)

Not off the top of my head no. I certainly haven't heard of any. Mind, it seems likely that we wouldn't have heard about this offer for Gyan either if the deal hadn't have happened, so it's tough to put too much stock in that.

I am not trying to prove myself correct in any way, btw. If I could prove anything it wouldn't be an opinion piece. All it is is my own personal take on the situation. No more, no less.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Not off the top of my head no. I certainly haven't heard of any. Mind, it seems likely that we wouldn't have heard about this offer for Gyan either if the deal hadn't have happened, so it's tough to put too much stock in that.

I am not trying to prove myself correct in any way, btw. If I could prove anything it wouldn't be an opinion piece. All it is is my own personal take on the situation. No more, no less.

Stow the waffle and stop playing to the gallery, what is your personal opinion as to why Gyan and Bent left the club. As succinctly as possible please.
 
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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Not off the top of my head no. I certainly haven't heard of any. Mind, it seems likely that we wouldn't have heard about this offer for Gyan either if the deal hadn't have happened, so it's tough to put too much stock in that.

I am not trying to prove myself correct in any way, btw. If I could prove anything it wouldn't be an opinion piece. All it is is my own personal take on the situation. No more, no less.

I think it hasn't been heard of because it's unprecedented.... crazy money for someone who isn't even fit.. the fact that the window over there was going to be open for another 50 days is another reason which makes it a different situation to most others...

...i know what your saying in relation to the pattern and how we shouldn't always just sell a player if he's "unhappy"......I agree


... but looking at all the instances individually (Cana, Bent, Gyan) then i think the loaning of Gyan makes the most sense of all 3.... 6mil loan fee is unheard of, the guy wasn't even fit, gone for 5-6 weeks in new year and we still own the guy in 9 months.
 
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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Stow the waffle and stop playing to the gallery, what is your personal opinion as to why Gyan and Bent left the club. As succinctly as possible please.

My own personal opinion is in the blog. I think that the club lacks sufficient resolve to keep hold of it's top players and I think Bruce struggles to man-manage them.

Now my turn for a question. Why do you steadfastly refuse to believe that is my genuine opinion? What evidence have I ever shown before of a desire to "play to the gallery"? You know, during all that time I have been one of the strongest advocates of patience on here...

I think it hasn't been heard of because it's unprecedented.... crazy money for someone who isn't even fit.. the fact that the window over there was going to be open for another 50 days is another reason which makes it a different situation to most others...

...i know what your saying in relation to the pattern and how we shouldn't always just sell a player if he's "unhappy"......I agree


... but looking at all the instances individually (Cana, Bent, Gyan) then i think the loaning of Gyan makes the most sense of all 3.... 6mil loan fee is unheard of, the guy wasn't even fit, gone for 5-6 weeks in new year and we still own the guy in 9 months.

I have absolutely no issue problem with the final decision we took. During the circumstances, the club got themselves a cracking deal. My concerns is why has the club once again found itself in a position where by a decision like this has to be made.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

My own personal opinion is in the blog. I think that the club lacks sufficient resolve to keep hold of it's top players and I think Bruce struggles to man-manage them.

Now my turn for a question. Why do you steadfastly refuse to believe that is my genuine opinion? What evidence have I ever shown before of a desire to "play to the gallery"? You know, during all that time I have been one of the strongest advocates of patience on here....

How the fuck can you manage players looking to make more money than a club can afford? It's impossible.

I feel the way I do because in the face of something as clear as day you've decided that there's a "pattern" emerging. Gyan left because he was offered a deal the very few clubs on this planet could match. Why look for anything beyond that? How could the club show it's resolve against such an offer? You can't man manage greed.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

How the fuck can you manage players looking to make more money than a club can afford? It's impossible.

I feel the way I do because in the face of something as clear as day you've decided that there's a "pattern" emerging. Gyan left because he was offered a deal the very few clubs on this planet could match. Why look for anything beyond that? How could the club show it's resolve against such an offer? You can't man manage greed.

That is your opinion. I can respect and accept that, but I don't share it. Again, my problem with it is that greedy footballers is not a problem unique to SAFC but losing players to such strange seemingly purely greed-driven transfers apparently is.

A genuine, honest, and innocent expression of opinion. Disagreeing with it is fair game, but I don't see the need to repeatedly call my motives for having it into question.
 
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