[roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusions


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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

It isn't BASED on that premise at all.

It is based on a question: If greedy players and mischievous agents are not something unique to SAFC, then why is top players leaving for lesser leagues and lower clubs with this kind of regularity pretty much unique to SAFC, (certainly in the Premier League, anyway).

The rest is just exploring that question, speculating on a few possibilities, and drawing my own personal conclusion.

Well it seemed to me a long and somewhat convoluted attempt to shift a lot of the blame onto Bruce.

My shorter answer to the question you've posed above is that our Board won't give in to the new and unreasonable demands of greedy players and agents 5 minutes after they've signed the last contract. Other Boards play ball or are prepared to threaten the player with the 'rot in reserves' option. I realise you've covered this in the article - I just don't go with the guesswork and conjecture which then tries to plant the blame in Bruce's lap.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Cana - left for a lesser league, yes, but for European football, so certainly not a lower club.

Bent - left for the same league, to a club which is on a par, if not better than us due to their lack of yo-yo-ing in recent years unlike ourselves.

Gyan is the only one who fits into your description, so you can hardly say there's any regularity about it...

I don't agree. The kind of players leaving England for Turkey are the likes of Vassell, Boyd, Carson et al. Before them the pull of the Champions League could only get Galatasaray players like Lucas Neill and Harry Kewell. Exclusively players on the way down. If they were such a massive draw, then where are the other players leaving England for them at their peak?

Villa were really struggling in the league at the time and looking in serious decline whilst we were in the top 6. For all Villa have have had much greater success than us in recent years, at the time it was a step down and taking a huge gamble. Also, remember Bent really wanted to go to Turkey too.

It may well be down purely to greedy individuals. But the regularity of it happening and almost exclusivity of it happening to Sunderland, means we would, in my opinion, be very naive to believe that.

Well it seemed to me a long and somewhat convoluted attempt to shift a lot of the blame onto Bruce.

My shorter answer to the question you've posed above is that our Board won't give in to the new and unreasonable demands of greedy players and agents 5 minutes after they've signed the last contract. Other Boards play ball or are prepared to threaten the player with the 'rot in reserves' option. I realise you've covered this in the article - I just don't go with the guesswork and conjecture which then tries to plant the blame in Bruce's lap.

Fair enough. But we shouldn't forget that any other version of events contains just as much guess work and conjecture as the one I have presented.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

I think any appointment is a gamble. I think we knew Bruce had the skills to vastly improve our player recruitment, which he has, so I wouldn't label it a total failure. May be 'it hasn't succeeded to the level we hoped' would be a fairer way to describe it.

But it's why it hasn't succeeded that interests me.What is it that we thought he would bring that he hasnt been able to? There are many,lots on here,who are questionning the player recruitment you mention.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Fair enough. But we shouldn't forget that any other version of events contains just as much guess work and conjecture as the one I have presented.

Agree with that - we'll never know will we really? Even if it is money (of which I am 'sure' in an educated guess sort of way) I can guarantee when the ghost written autobiographies appear it will all be that nasty man's fault and they loved Sunderland really - makes you want to vomit!
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

That says it all to be honest...

It just adds more fuel to the fire as far as I am concerned. Why have players at their peak playing in England who wanted to move to Turkey pretty much exclusively Sunderland ones?

Just our strict pay structure? Do we not protect our talent from agents as well as other clubs? Do we not do enough, once they are here, to sell the club's vision and ambition to them?

Plenty other explanations with far more weight behind them than believing we were just unlucky to come across a crop of mercenaries in one go. There has to be a connection somewhere and it is worth asking what it is. But that's just my opinion.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

It just adds more fuel to the fire as far as I am concerned. Why have players at their peak playing in England who wanted to move to Turkey pretty much exclusively Sunderland ones?

Just our strict pay structure? Do we not protect our talent from agents as well as other clubs? Do we not do enough, once they are here, to sell the club's vision and ambition to them?

Plenty other explanations with far more weight behind them than believing we were just unlucky to come across a crop of mercenaries in one go. There has to be a connection somewhere and it is worth asking what it is. But that's just my opinion.

Mr Short has been shocked at the outlay for men kicking a ball around maybe !!
 
Captain_Fishpaste said:
It just adds more fuel to the fire as far as I am concerned. Why have players at their peak playing in England who wanted to move to Turkey pretty much exclusively Sunderland ones?

Just our strict pay structure? Do we not protect our talent from agents as well as other clubs? Do we not do enough, once they are here, to sell the club's vision and ambition to them?

Plenty other explanations with far more weight behind them than believing we were just unlucky to come across a crop of mercenaries in one go. There has to be a connection somewhere and it is worth asking what it is. But that's just my opinion.

Worth asking, but if Bent had any ambition he would have stayed at Sunderland who, like you said, were in sixth spot and in line for European football. But no, instead he went to Villa for the money who at the time were struggling. And money was the reason why he wanted to go to Turkey.

Gyan left for money. Simple as that.

Cana is a bit different. I don't think there's a definitive answer for him. Homesick, couldn't hack the Premier League, didn't like Bruce? I dunno, I'm guessing.

Our wage structure quite clearly has an affect on keeping players. Let's not forget, Bent went to Quinn asking for a pay rise in the summer before he left. So his intentions were made clear from that day, and the club should have prepared for the time Bent inevitably left.
 
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Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Worth asking, but if Bent had any ambition he would have stayed at Sunderland who, like you said, were in sixth spot and in line for European football. But no, instead he went to Villa for the money who at the time were struggling. And money was the reason why he wanted to go to Turkey.

Exactly the same with Gyan.

Cana is a bit different. I don't think there's a definitive answer for him. Homesick, couldn't hack the Premier League, didn't like Bruce? I dunno, I'm guessing.

Our wage structure quite clearly has an affect on keeping players. Let's not forget, Bent went to Quinn asking for a pay rise in the summer before he left. So his intentions were made clear from that day, and the club should have prepared for the time Bent inevitably left.

Our wage structure may be the problem. As I said, any policy that protects and rewards plodders yet alienates your match-winners isn't really conducive with our (alleged) ambitions.Remember Bardsley was after more money just the same as Gyan and Bent were. Only difference was that he got it, and he got it long before his form could have merited it.

But I personally think there is more than enough to think there is a connection somewhere within the club itself. It is like the injury situation last year. Eventually, it reaches the point where it is just happening too often to be a random event down to bad luck.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Good blog Captain. You raise plenty of good points. What worries me more however, is if Bruce isn't the man responsible for the big departures and that Short makes a lot more of these decisions than we're aware of.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Mr Short has been shocked at the outlay for men kicking a ball around maybe !!
Drumaville were iirc.

I doubt Short would have been though, well I hope not. I would expect he has alot of experienced finance people at his helm. I suppose they would have little experience of the finances of premier league football. Saying that iirc lone star have bought alot of foreign firms (including S. Korea, where lone star came under media scrutiny through one of their takeovers) so they will be experienced in finding information in markets they have no prior knowledge to.

Conclusion: Who f***ing knows

Our wage structure may be the problem. As I said, any policy that protects and rewards plodders yet alienates your match-winners isn't really conducive with our (alleged) ambitions.Remember Bardsley was after more money just the same as Gyan and Bent were. Only difference was that he got it, and he got it long before his form could have merited it.

But I personally think there is more than enough to think there is a connection somewhere within the club itself. It is like the injury situation last year. Eventually, it reaches the point where it is just happening too often to be a random event down to bad luck.
For some strange reason I am now convinced they were promised more money if they delivered. They asked for it, and didn't get it for one reason or the other, and that is why they throw their toys out of the pram. All my opinion like, with nowt to back it up.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Good blog Captain. You raise plenty of good points. What worries me more however, is if Bruce isn't the man responsible for the big departures and that Short makes a lot more of these decisions than we're aware of.

That would be a worse-case scenario, really. Mind, just like with Bent and Cana, I think that there is enough evidence to say with confidence that Gyan's move was mostly player-driven. What worries me is what motivated them to do it, and why are we unable to resist it where other clubs can.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Worth asking, but if Bent had any ambition he would have stayed at Sunderland who, like you said, were in sixth spot and in line for European football. But no, instead he went to Villa for the money who at the time were struggling. And money was the reason why he wanted to go to Turkey.

Gyan left for money. Simple as that.

Cana is a bit different. I don't think there's a definitive answer for him. Homesick, couldn't hack the Premier League, didn't like Bruce? I dunno, I'm guessing.

Our wage structure quite clearly has an affect on keeping players. Let's not forget, Bent went to Quinn asking for a pay rise in the summer before he left. So his intentions were made clear from that day, and the club should have prepared for the time Bent inevitably left.

A 10% tax rate might hold the answer.

Our wage structure may be the problem. As I said, any policy that protects and rewards plodders yet alienates your match-winners isn't really conducive with our (alleged) ambitions.Remember Bardsley was after more money just the same as Gyan and Bent were. Only difference was that he got it, and he got it long before his form could have merited it.

But I personally think there is more than enough to think there is a connection somewhere within the club itself. It is like the injury situation last year. Eventually, it reaches the point where it is just happening too often to be a random event down to bad luck.

TBF Cap'n you've got absolutely no idea that this is the case.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

A 10% tax rate might hold the answer.



TBF Cap'n you've got absolutely no idea that this is the case.

It isn't a 10% tax rate for only former Sunderland players though, is it? So if that is the draw then why is it not drawing players of a similar ilk from other clubs?

As for Bardsley, his agent said this in December 2009:

"There seems to be growing speculation regards Phil and his future, but he would love nothing more than to extend his deal at Sunderland,"

"He loves the club, staff and supporters, but, in any walk of life, if you do a job with someone week in, week out, then you are going to want parity with those colleagues.

"Phil's consistency has no doubt caught the eye of other clubs, but he is a Sunderland player and would love to stay longer under Steve Bruce."

Bardsley wanted parity. He wanted more coin, and in December 2009 had he really deserved it? Within a year, he had it though.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

To be honest mate, I reckon you should put this to bed. There's no way any fan knows the minutae of what goes on at the club. Far too many of your arguments rely pretty strongly on vague generalisations.

Just in my opinion.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

That would be a worse-case scenario, really. Mind, just like with Bent and Cana, I think that there is enough evidence to say with confidence that Gyan's move was mostly player-driven. What worries me is what motivated them to do it, and why are we unable to resist it where other clubs can.

Perhaps you're right, although I get the feeling that the club weren't even prepared to negotiate or discuss the situation with the players.

Steed and Anton weren't player driven and not offering Gordon a new contract isn't player driven.

We're offloading our big earners, no doubt about it. What would be really interesting to see is if we've offered the new players decent wages to come here (obviously I expect us to have tried to cut our cloth somewhat) or if some of the players we've picked up were purely because we could get them cheap.
 
Re: [roker report] Captain's Blog: At Bruce's Behest - Drawing My Own Gyan Conclusion

Drawing lines connecting these transfers smacks of obsession. Finding fault while we are in a down turn is easy. Mid-season knee-jerking is shortsighted. If we finish above tenth, we have improved again. If not, hang the bastard at fault.
 
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