Quotas for coloured coaches...


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So how do they prove they are good enough if they don't get the job?.

They could start by not complaining that ex pro's aren't being handed top level manager jobs - and go down the leagues to get whatever job they can.
But they're used to £50,000 a week, and simply won't work for £1,000 a week as a coach to get the experience.
 
There's clearly something not right here. Loads and loads of black and coloured players and hardly any black or coloured managers or coaches. It seems very apparent that they are getting overlooked and not given a chance. Why? This is not PC gone mad just an attempt to try and answer this conundrum. Every single time race is raised people on here go 'PC gone mad'. Why? Do you feel threatened?

The Rooney rule is a good one - it demands no quotas just ensure ethnic minorities get a chance to be considered - whats wrong with that?

Even if we are being selfish we are not choosing from a big enough pool by not considering black candidates. Maybe if the game did get more black/ethnic minority coaches we might end up with a few decent English managers - unlike now.


Yes, it's quite a standard reply - when we hear about quotas for women MP's, ethnic minorities, etc - sorry for being unoriginal.

Threatened??? By what exactly?

I've noticed a couple of question marks raised over my use of the term coloured - I've been out of England for 30 odd years now - has this term come into disuse for some reason? What adjectives would be better?
 
huddersfield town took a canny back hander to appoint chris powell from the LMA apparently like.

thats from one of their directors.
 
.......... pc gone mad again. The day that one black, coffee-coloured or whatever hue coach does well and produces the goods, he'll be snapped up by the big clubs on merit - and on merit alone - but promoting anyone just on account of the shade of their skin colour is wrong. Treating anyone differently, positively or negatively - solely on account of their skin colour shade is racist. In this respect we all ought to be colour-blind.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/nov/10/players-call-one-five-coaches-ethnic-minorities-2020

Totally agree with your sentiment. Who gives a flying fuck what colour they are if they are good enough they will be given the job.

Imagine trying to instill such a rule in countries where the caucasian race is the minority. Farcical.
 
Yes, it's quite a standard reply - when we hear about quotas for women MP's, ethnic minorities, etc - sorry for being unoriginal.

Threatened??? By what exactly?

I've noticed a couple of question marks raised over my use of the term coloured - I've been out of England for 30 odd years now - has this term come into disuse for some reason? What adjectives would be better?

The term Black (which apparently includes Asian and other dark skin races) has come into the Mainstream speech over the all 10 years, I've got an Asian mate who hates being called black..does that make him a racist
 
They could start by not complaining that ex pro's aren't being handed top level manager jobs - and go down the leagues to get whatever job they can.
But they're used to £50,000 a week, and simply won't work for £1,000 a week as a coach to get the experience.

Where statistics appear to be king, I've yet to see the ethnic breakdown of those who hold the correct badges to be able to hold the role in the Prem or elsewhere. I'd be disappointed if our club didn't interview a potential manager due to their ethnicity - but don't believe we are such a club. Those who have played in England and then managed, off top of my head, with a non-white ethnicity would be Powell, Barnes, Ince, Ruud and Hughton - Barnes was terrible, Hughton got a bad press at Sid James but appears to be a good manager, Ruud was bound to fail when him and Shearer fell out, Ince has failed at every role and Powell has been OK at the lower leagues. But how many others are qualified? I like the idea of from £50k to £1k may put people off, but equally, if they have that much money and they want to achieve in managemenbt, it should be the time learning not the money paid.
 
Yes, it's quite a standard reply - when we hear about quotas for women MP's, ethnic minorities, etc - sorry for being unoriginal.

Threatened??? By what exactly?

I've noticed a couple of question marks raised over my use of the term coloured - I've been out of England for 30 odd years now - has this term come into disuse for some reason? What adjectives would be better?
I'm with you. It changes every other week. I see some people are 'offended' by it though.
 
Where statistics appear to be king, I've yet to see the ethnic breakdown of those who hold the correct badges to be able to hold the role in the Prem or elsewhere. I'd be disappointed if our club didn't interview a potential manager due to their ethnicity - but don't believe we are such a club. Those who have played in England and then managed, off top of my head, with a non-white ethnicity would be Powell, Barnes, Ince, Ruud and Hughton - Barnes was terrible, Hughton got a bad press at Sid James but appears to be a good manager, Ruud was bound to fail when him and Shearer fell out, Ince has failed at every role and Powell has been OK at the lower leagues. But how many others are qualified? I like the idea of from £50k to £1k may put people off, but equally, if they have that much money and they want to achieve in managemenbt, it should be the time learning not the money paid.

Les ferdinand has done ok as a coach, he's now involved with QPR in some way I think, just found out he's Head of football Operations, what ever that means ?
 
So if you had a black and white person applying for the same job with the same interview score, the black candidate would get it just because of his skin tone ?

Nope.

The term Black (which apparently includes Asian and other dark skin races) has come into the Mainstream speech over the all 10 years, I've got an Asian mate who hates being called black..does that make him a racist

He's not black though
 
Yes, it's quite a standard reply - when we hear about quotas for women MP's, ethnic minorities, etc - sorry for being unoriginal.

Threatened??? By what exactly?

I've noticed a couple of question marks raised over my use of the term coloured - I've been out of England for 30 odd years now - has this term come into disuse for some reason? What adjectives would be better?

What would you suggest should be done? There clearly is a problem - loads of black players, hardly any black coaches/managers. I think if nothing is done this will persist and I think the English game will suffer and does suffer accordingly - as well as it just being 'not right'. A agree quotas is not the right way but the Rooney rule does not demand quotas just that black candidates are considered. I don't think there's an easy answer but I do think it should be addressed. What would you suggest is done?
 
'I think if nothing is done this will persist'

I imagine that, even at this point in the debate, an equally qualified black candidate would get a job over a white one - it would generate such good publicity for the club apart from anything else.

To be honest there are several statistical trends here that could explain what is going on without resorting to simplistic explanations of bigotry:

First, the proportion of black footballers in England has increased significantly over the past 15-20 years, and there being a natural time-lag between a playing and managing career, it would be daft to expect the number of black managers to approach the current % of black players.

Secondly, at the same time, the money made by the players has increased, and so have the media opportunities for ex-players - so the number of ex-players generally who are interested in pursuing management as a secondary career may be less than it was for the previous generations of players. So an increase in the % of black players wouldn't necessarily impact in more black managers to the same extent.

Thirdly - strict qualification requirements have been imposed which may again put off ex-players from going though the licensing process. There may also be a case for believing that throughout the UK young black males generally do not thrive in classroom-type learning environments, so they may be more put off either from personal experiences or cultural feedback from pursuing these licences.

Also the culture of the UK might be structurally racist in not seeing/encouraging black males in/into teaching roles (When I say' primary school teacher' does a black guy pop into your head? How about 'rap musician'?) and maybe such a view even extends to the black culture itself - reinforcing the effect. That doesn't mean that directors of football clubs necessarily share that view. One issue that might be exacerbating the problem is the catch 22 that boards tend to demand experience - so it will take while for a breakthrough of BME coaches at lower league levels to move up the tiers to where they are more visible..

Fourthly it looks like the current numbers of black UEFA licence applicants is less than 5.1% (as that is the figure for all BME people). Presumably it was lower than that in the past, so factoring in the timelag 3.1% in jobs seems to be very poor evidence of any direct or obvious racism.

Summary - the problem isn't that clubs are being intentionally racist - they would probably welcome more properly qualified BME candidates - but 95% of those coaches taking the higher level qualifications are not BME.

The problem (if indeed there is one) is that not enough BME candidates are taking the UEFA courses required to get the decent jobs. It seems very harsh to blame Ellis Short and Maggie Burne for that...
 
'I think if nothing is done this will persist'

I imagine that, even at this point in the debate, an equally qualified black candidate would get a job over a white one - it would generate such good publicity for the club apart from anything else.

To be honest there are several statistical trends here that could explain what is going on without resorting to simplistic explanations of bigotry:

First, the proportion of black footballers in England has increased significantly over the past 15-20 years, and there being a natural time-lag between a playing and managing career, it would be daft to expect the number of black managers to approach the current % of black players.

Secondly, at the same time, the money made by the players has increased, and so have the media opportunities for ex-players - so the number of ex-players generally who are interested in pursuing management as a secondary career may be less than it was for the previous generations of players. So an increase in the % of black players wouldn't necessarily impact in more black managers to the same extent.

Thirdly - strict qualification requirements have been imposed which may again put off ex-players from going though the licensing process. There may also be a case for believing that throughout the UK young black males generally do not thrive in classroom-type learning environments, so they may be more put off either from personal experiences or cultural feedback from pursuing these licences.

Also the culture of the UK might be structurally racist in not seeing/encouraging black males in/into teaching roles (When I say' primary school teacher' does a black guy pop into your head? How about 'rap musician'?) and maybe such a view even extends to the black culture itself - reinforcing the effect. That doesn't mean that directors of football clubs necessarily share that view. One issue that might be exacerbating the problem is the catch 22 that boards tend to demand experience - so it will take while for a breakthrough of BME coaches at lower league levels to move up the tiers to where they are more visible..

Fourthly it looks like the current numbers of black UEFA licence applicants is less than 5.1% (as that is the figure for all BME people). Presumably it was lower than that in the past, so factoring in the timelag 3.1% in jobs seems to be very poor evidence of any direct or obvious racism.

Summary - the problem isn't that clubs are being intentionally racist - they would probably welcome more properly qualified BME candidates - but 95% of those coaches taking the higher level qualifications are not BME.

The problem (if indeed there is one) is that not enough BME candidates are taking the UEFA courses required to get the decent jobs. It seems very harsh to blame Ellis Short and Maggie Burne for that...
Agreed with this. No harm whatsoever in a Rooney rule equivalent over here.
 
Why is football leading the way on this?

What proposition of lead actors on the stage are black? Formula one drivers? Rugby coaches? MP's? Board members of plc's? Barmaids? Name any profession in fact. Why is football so special?
 
What if 20-25% of players were from ethnic minorities? Managers are normally ex-players. Therefore that is the appropriate population to use.

The number of players is irrelevant if they aren't getting their coaching badges though. Plus you have to bear in mind that it's the number of people who have finished playing that is relevant, not the number that are playing now.

If I was a checkout operator at Tesco, I might aspire to be a store manager one day. I have two choices, either just say "they'll never give me a store manager's job because I'm only a checkout operator" or I could go out and get the qualifications I need, apply for a supervisor's job, prove myself, then apply for a department manager's job etc., and work my way up. The latter may not work, and I may never get a Store Managers job despite my best efforts. But if I opt for the former I'll never know. Hence you have people like Brendan Rodgers who was coaching for over a decade, going round Europe learning from the best, or Garry Monk who did his badges, and helped out with coaching the youth team while still a player, that get noticed and get opportunities over those who have no experience at all.

What percentage of the UK population are from ethnic minorities? Players are normally people. Maybe the football authorities should start looking at addressing the imbalance of white and Asian players so that it better reflects the UK population if you really want to correct statistical imbalances.
 
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