Put a flat earthier into space

[payne]

Pressure is about mass displacing the atmosphere.
You don't change the pressure you just alter the direction of it.

I see, I see

 

[Nukehasslefan]

Are you saying microphones if sensitive enough can detect light?

Nope. You offered microphones for sound. Why change it?

Put it another way, the sun is one of the brightest objects we see so logically it must also be the loudest source.

Not at all. Quite the opposite actually.

So if you have a reasonable quality microphone in the shade then move it into brilliant sunshine, you will hear a noise.

Any noise you heard would be atmospheric friction caused by the reflection of the suns heatwaves.
Through atmosphere itself it would need something extremely sensitive to pick up the agitation but it could be done.

 

[TheDataGuy]

Pressure is about mass displacing the atmosphere.

But we are in water not atmosphere? Which one is it?

You don't change the pressure you just alter the direction of it.

So it doesn't just push up and down. So why do we fall towards the ground?

Nope. You offered microphones for sound. Why change it?

Ah yes, you have never changed from atmosphere to water and back again?

You don't change the pressure you just alter the direction of it.

On this point, if I dig a hole in a cliff face and climb in do I now stand on the wall at the end as I have changed the direction of the pressure from the atmosphere?

 

[Nukehasslefan]

But we are in water not atmosphere? Which one is it?

Either. It doesn't matter. They both offer the very same deal in terms of reaction to action or mass against volume.

So it doesn't just push up and down. So why do we fall towards the ground?

It pushes in all directions. I'm just saying they're not all equal.
Stacked layers should offer that clue.

Ah yes, you have never changed from atmosphere to water and back again?

I'm offering you a clearer mindset. If you choose not to think on it then I can't change that.

 

[DaveH]

Nope. You offered microphones for sound. Why change it?


Not at all. Quite the opposite actually.

Any noise you heard would be atmospheric friction caused by the reflection of the suns heatwaves.
Through atmosphere itself it would need something extremely sensitive to pick up the agitation but it could be done.

I don't understand your comment. I said microphones and then microphones again and you ask why change it? It is the same.

You claim that light is sound. You can't prove it and I have given plenty of counter examples. Sound can be produced without friction and light.

 

[TheDataGuy]

I'm offering you a clearer mindset. If you choose not to think on it then I can't change that.

Haha, the amount of mental gymnastics you have to do for your world to work is incredible.

It pushes in all directions. I'm just saying they're not all equal.
Stacked layers should offer that clue.

So then why do we not experience different pressure in the cave as there are less stacked layers above the person in the cave. This means there is less downward force on top of the person so they should feel different amounts of pressure. Think on it

 

[Nukehasslefan]

On this point, if I dig a hole in a cliff face and climb in do I now stand on the wall at the end as I have changed the direction of the pressure from the atmosphere?

No because you're still in layers of atmosphere that go to that cave.

Imagine stood in a world of coloured lines. We'll call these the stacked layers of lines.
Each colour is more or less pressure.

Ok, you stand in the lines upright. What happens?
You alter the lines where your dense mass of your body displaces them.
They need to alter...but how?

You compress each line either side of you and around you. That set of lines now offers your displacement of your mass back onto you.
You're clamped or under pressure all the way to the very top of your head and then the lines above will offer pressure onto the top of your head directly above it.
You're now under a downward squeeze that your body resists.

Ok now you want to go in a cave.
The lines to that cave are still running into it and you going into the cave means you push those lines out of the way and they return behind you and around you with every step.#
What you push away is returned right back at you.
Once you're in the cave you then still displace those same line only in a different location.

The cave itself does the very same.

Yeah I know it's crude but you ask so I'm trying to offer you something to focus on if you can.

 

[payne]

No because you're still in layers of atmosphere that go to that cave.

Imagine stood in a world of coloured lines. We'll call these the stacked layers of lines.
Each colour is more or less pressure.

Ok, you stand in the lines upright. What happens?
You alter the lines where your dense mass of your body displaces them.
They need to alter...but how?

You compress each line either side of you and around you. That set of lines now offers your displacement of your mass back onto you.
You're clamped or under pressure all the way to the very top of your head and then the lines above will offer pressure onto the top of your head directly above it.
You're now under a downward squeeze that your body resists.

Ok now you want to go in a cave.
The lines to that cave are still running into it and you going into the cave means you push those lines out of the way and they return behind you and around you with every step.#
What you push away is returned right back at you.
Once you're in the cave you then still displace those same line only in a different location.

The cave itself does the very same.

Yeah I know it's crude but you ask so I'm trying to offer you something to focus on if you can.

Such a helpful chap

 

[Nukehasslefan]

I don't understand your comment. I said microphones and then microphones again and you ask why change it? It is the same.

What is the same?

You claim that light is sound.

Yes. I said you don't get light without sound/vibration/freiction/frequency.

You can't prove it

I have done by offering you the option to go and prove it to yourself. You can say I haven't offered or you can refuse to do the experiments you know. Either way it's up to you. None of it is any issue for me.

and I have given plenty of counter examples.

Counter examples of what?

Sound can be produced without friction and light.

No it can't.
Anyone who cares to have a good think on it will understand it can't happen.
Life works on it.
Life is energy by vibration/sound/friction/frequency.

Simple as that.

 

[nahwee]

If I have a sealed container with atmosphere inside and I shake it around, how do the layers stack up again?

This is a good question.
Any chance of an answer?

 

[TheDataGuy]

No because you're still in layers of atmosphere that go to that cave.

Imagine stood in a world of coloured lines. We'll call these the stacked layers of lines.
Each colour is more or less pressure.

Ok, you stand in the lines upright. What happens?
You alter the lines where your dense mass of your body displaces them.
They need to alter...but how?

You compress each line either side of you and around you. That set of lines now offers your displacement of your mass back onto you.
You're clamped or under pressure all the way to the very top of your head and then the lines above will offer pressure onto the top of your head directly above it.
You're now under a downward squeeze that your body resists.

Ok now you want to go in a cave.
The lines to that cave are still running into it and you going into the cave means you push those lines out of the way and they return behind you and around you with every step.#
What you push away is returned right back at you.
Once you're in the cave you then still displace those same line only in a different location.

The cave itself does the very same.

Yeah I know it's crude but you ask so I'm trying to offer you something to focus on if you can.

Ok let me do something, if I have a stack of 10 books, each weighing 1kg then the stack pushes down with 10 kg of weight. Now if I move the 4 bottom books to the side, simulating digging a cave to the side, do I still experience the 10kg of weight from the books?

This is a good question.
Any chance of an answer?

Is the pope a blue alien from the planet zog?

 

[Nobby]

Is the pope a blue alien from the planet zog?

No such thing as planets

 

[DaveH]

What is the same?

Yes. I said you don't get light without sound/vibration/freiction/frequency.

I have done by offering you the option to go and prove it to yourself. You can say I haven't offered or you can refuse to do the experiments you know. Either way it's up to you. None of it is any issue for me.

Counter examples of what?

No it can't.
Anyone who cares to have a good think on it will understand it can't happen.
Life works on it.
Life is energy by vibration/sound/friction/frequency.

Simple as that.

You are talking bollocks. Consider how some of the electrical devices we use work, such as a speaker:

Logon or register to see this image

You have a flexible cone and at the bottom of it is a coil of wire. Put a rapidly changing current through the coil and it either attracts or repels relative to the magnet at the bottom. As it does this it causes the cone it is attached to to move backwards and forwards. It vibrates creating the compressed and uncompressed waves in the area that we call sound. The cone needs to move freely without friction, otherwise you will get unwanted sound or distorted sound as the speaker cone could move freely. Here we have a system where sound is produced without friction and no light is produced, no matter how loud the sound is.

If you capture the sound with a microphone, this is a similar device (and similar to an ear drum) where you have a flexible membrane that vibrates in the presence of sound and that moves a metal coil in a magnet, generating a current and then this current is either amplified and reproduced as sound or sampled and recorded somewhere.

One other example of this is with ultrasonic sensors. These are used for range location

Logon or register to see this image

This has pretty much two identical cones. One emits ultrasonic sound, the other detects the rebound. In applications, you calculate the time between the two events and using the speed of sound you can calculate distance.

So sound with no friction, but it does have vibrations in the air, it does not have heat or light. This is completely different to what you have said with your sticks.

Now consider other types of distance measurement devices, such as infra red:

Arranged in a similar formation, this device has two solid plastic units as the emitter and receiver. They can not detect the vibration of sound. In one an electric current causes silicone to emit IR light, the other IR light induces a current. These are not affected by sound. To use something like this you use the speed of sound in your calculation.

In this you have a device that can send IR light without sound and can receive light when it can't receive sound. The solid plastic lump design of them make them very difficult to detect sound. Similarly your eyes are a very different structure to your ears.

There is literally no evidence that light is sound and that both are down to friction, only your wild assumption following flawed logic after seeing two sticks being rubbed together.

 

[3.142]

No because you're still in layers of atmosphere that go to that cave.

Imagine stood in a world of coloured lines. We'll call these the stacked layers of lines.
Each colour is more or less pressure.

Ok, you stand in the lines upright. What happens?
You alter the lines where your dense mass of your body displaces them.
They need to alter...but how?

You compress each line either side of you and around you. That set of lines now offers your displacement of your mass back onto you.
You're clamped or under pressure all the way to the very top of your head and then the lines above will offer pressure onto the top of your head directly above it.
You're now under a downward squeeze that your body resists.

Ok now you want to go in a cave.
The lines to that cave are still running into it and you going into the cave means you push those lines out of the way and they return behind you and around you with every step.#
What you push away is returned right back at you.
Once you're in the cave you then still displace those same line only in a different location.

The cave itself does the very same.

Yeah I know it's crude but you ask so I'm trying to offer you something to focus on if you can.

What in your world creates the colours? Why is the world not black white and grey?

 

[tarfer]

No because you're still in layers of atmosphere that go to that cave.

Imagine stood in a world of coloured lines. We'll call these the stacked layers of lines.
Each colour is more or less pressure.

Ok, you stand in the lines upright. What happens?
You alter the lines where your dense mass of your body displaces them.
They need to alter...but how?

You compress each line either side of you and around you. That set of lines now offers your displacement of your mass back onto you.
You're clamped or under pressure all the way to the very top of your head and then the lines above will offer pressure onto the top of your head directly above it.
You're now under a downward squeeze that your body resists.

Ok now you want to go in a cave.
The lines to that cave are still running into it and you going into the cave means you push those lines out of the way and they return behind you and around you with every step.#
What you push away is returned right back at you.
Once you're in the cave you then still displace those same line only in a different location.

The cave itself does the very same.

Yeah I know it's crude but you ask so I'm trying to offer you something to focus on if you can.

 

[DPTT]

Reading that book someone mentioned in here ages ago, Big Bang by Simon Singh.

Anyway Page 43 and am sure this quote from Copernicus was definitely written with nukey in mind

“Perhaps there will be babblers, who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgment on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded”

 

[Nukehasslefan]

Ok let me do something, if I have a stack of 10 books, each weighing 1kg then the stack pushes down with 10 kg of weight. Now if I move the 4 bottom books to the side, simulating digging a cave to the side, do I still experience the 10kg of weight from the books?

If you move the 4 books to the side what are you moving them to the side against?
You need to offer a better scenario.

 

[DaveH]

Reading that book someone mentioned in here ages ago, Big Bang by Simon Singh.

Anyway Page 43 and am sure this quote from Copernicus was definitely written with nukey in mind

“Perhaps there will be babblers, who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgment on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded”

Written 600 years ago, but applies so well today.

Sorry, should I say "Do you Copernicus, did you hear him say that? Have you met Simon Singh? How do you know either of them are real?".


I did go to a bit of strange presentation by Simon Singh that he did at my work. He is a fairly well known name but the group who arranged his visit for a guest lecture seemed to be a load of very old academics who don't really know about communications and advertising. Although it was at my work, my wife noticed it mentioned by someone saying they were going, on a twitter feed. It was open to the public for free, but not even advertised around the work place to people who worked there. As a result it was a bit embarrassing that his lecture was not very well attended, about a third full.

A really nice bloke though. They had not looked at the AV side at all in advance, and could not log into the PC driving everything and was left stuck in front of an audience. That side of things is not my area but I was able to pop down to the front and manage to figure it out to get it going. I got to have a bit of a chat with him while we were sorting it all out.

 

[Nukehasslefan]

You are talking bollocks.

In your opinion.

Consider how some of the electrical devices we use work, such as a speaker:

Logon or register to see this image

You have a flexible cone and at the bottom of it is a coil of wire. Put a rapidly changing current through the coil and it either attracts or repels relative to the magnet at the bottom. As it does this it causes the cone it is attached to to move backwards and forwards. It vibrates creating the compressed and uncompressed waves in the area that we call sound. The cone needs to move freely without friction

Impossible for the cone to move without friction.

, otherwise you will get unwanted sound or distorted sound as the speaker cone could move freely.

It can never move freely. It's always under friction. It may be small amount of friction but friction nonetheless.

Here we have a system where sound is produced without friction and no light is produced, no matter how loud the sound is.

Sound can not be produced without vibration. Vibration is friction of matter.
No discernible light will be produced to your vision.
If you want to see light you need to up the frequency and force. This would make it clear to see but would destroy the equipment in the process because it's not designed to do that.

Let's make this clear.
Do you think there are animals and insects that can see light that you can't?
Ask yourself why.
Do you think animals and insects hear sound that you can't?
Ask yourself why.
Do you think animals and insects can detect vibrations which you can't?
Ask yourself why.

If you capture the sound with a microphone, this is a similar device (and similar to an ear drum) where you have a flexible membrane that vibrates in the presence of sound and that moves a metal coil in a magnet, generating a current and then this current is either amplified and reproduced as sound or sampled and recorded somewhere.

Yes and ear drum and hammer.
You know what an induction hob is, right?

You know many things that offer vibration/sound/frequency.
You know some you see, some you feel, some you hear.
You also know we aren't the only creatures that sense frequencies.

One other example of this is with ultrasonic sensors. These are used for range location

Logon or register to see this image

This has pretty much two identical cones. One emits ultrasonic sound, the other detects the rebound. In applications, you calculate the time between the two events and using the speed of sound you can calculate distance.

So sound with no friction, but it does have vibrations in the air, it does not have heat or light. This is completely different to what you have said with your sticks.

Now consider other types of distance measurement devices, such as infra red:

Arranged in a similar formation, this device has two solid plastic units as the emitter and receiver. They can not detect the vibration of sound. In one an electric current causes silicone to emit IR light, the other IR light induces a current. These are not affected by sound. To use something like this you use the speed of sound in your calculation.

In this you have a device that can send IR light without sound and can receive light when it can't receive sound. The solid plastic lump design of them make them very difficult to detect sound. Similarly your eyes are a very different structure to your ears.

There is literally no evidence that light is sound and that both are down to friction, only your wild assumption following flawed logic after seeing two sticks being rubbed together.

The flawed logic is not from me.

 

[TheDataGuy]

If you move the 4 books to the side what are you moving them to the side against?
You need to offer a better scenario.

We can use bed sheets if you want? That was what you used in your analogy for layers. I have 10 bed sheets each weighing 1kg, so the total is 10kg, we move 4 to the side, how much weight do the bed sheets weigh?

Can you anser the question I asked earlier, if I have a sealed container with atmosphere inside and I shake it around, how do the layers stack up again?