Otto Warmbier dead

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templei said:
55,000 foreigners in US prisons as well (2011 data from a BBC article). Yet 4 US men held in DPRK is huge news. Admittedly, the whole coma thing seems very odd and i'm not sure we'll ever really know what has actually happened.
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Unbelievable.

I bet every single one of those 55,000 can be accounted for. I bet they are all charged with crimes. I bet their embassies know their status. I bet they arent in permanent vegetative comas. I bet they haven't been tortured and put on a state TV show trial on absurd charges. I bet the 55,000 vs 4 discrepancy can be explained very quickly as the gap between number of Americans in "DPRK" and the number of foreigners in the US. I am fairly sure that dealing in absolute numbers 55,000 vs 4 without this context is entirely one dimensional and betrays your bias.

"Admittedly, the whole coma thing seems very odd"

Aye.

Very f***ing odd.

21 year old healthy American reels off paranoid Juche rhetoric is carted away and emerges a short time later in a coma which he doesnt wake from.

Just a little bit odd mind, I'm sure the nasty American deserved it though and he shouldnt have broken that ancient North Korean law of being from the wrong country at the wrong place at the wrong time. The bastard.
 
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yorkyexile said:
he only just came home on Sunday? from North Korea, went on holiday in rude health, got "caught" stealing on of their motivational signs, followed by the mandatory televised admission that it was him sponsored by a church, that was backed by the CIA, jail time and "compassionately released" due a Coma, cause unknown. Although the US docs said there was no signs physical abuse he was IIRC said to be in a state of Awakened unresponsiveness?

Sounds more like a Catatonia where theres been that much mental abuse he`s simply shut down
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This could be case for Mulder and Scully
 
Jack Blue said:
Give me a name of a foreign national who, having been found guilty in an American kangaroo court show trial, then mysteriously slipped into a coma shortly afterwards and their rapid health deterioration kept a secret from the outside world, from that foreign powers diplomats, from the tour group that guaranteed the safety of the foreign national and from the foreign nationals family.

This boy was kidnapped and given hard labour on trumped up non-charges. He was a hostage of a terrorist regime and used as a political pawn in the most appalling way.

Your point is poorly thought out, one dimension and you should be ashamed. For a westerner to compare the USA with that entity which styles itself as DPRK is astonishing.
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My point is poorly thought out? Are you seriously defending the American justice system. A system steeped in racism, corruption and, well, let's call them questionable morals. Guanatanamo Bay being the absolute pinnacle of that system.

This boy wasn't kidnapped at all, why on earth have you just made that up? He was arrested for committing a crime in a state he chose to visit. A brutal, hardliner, dictatorship state. Its tragic, but he was a fool.

And for the record, North Korea is not a terrorist state by any reasonable definition....the recent vote by the US to classify it as such in April was by any stretch reactionary and utterly unfounded.

You really should think before you type bonny lad.
 
moshpit said:
My point is poorly thought out? Are you seriously defending the American justice system. A system steeped in racism, corruption and, well, let's call them questionable morals. Guanatanamo Bay being the absolute pinnacle of that system.

This boy wasn't kidnapped at all, why on earth have you just made that up? He was arrested for committing a crime in a state he chose to visit. A brutal, hardliner, dictatorship state. Its tragic, but he was a fool.

And for the record, North Korea is not a terrorist state by any reasonable definition....the recent vote by the US to classify it as such in April was by any stretch reactionary and utterly unfounded.

You really should think before you type bonny lad.
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Are you suggesting it wasn't a kangaroo court?
 
Jack Blue said:
Unbelievable.

I bet every single one of those 55,000 can be accounted for. I bet they are all charged with crimes. I bet their embassies know their status. I bet they arent in permanent vegetative comas. I bet they haven't been tortured and put on a state TV show trial on absurd charges. I bet the 55,000 vs 4 discrepancy can be explained very quickly as the gap between number of Americans in "DPRK" and the number of foreigners in the US. I am fairly sure that dealing in absolute numbers 55,000 vs 4 without this context is entirely one dimensional and betrays your bias.

"Admittedly, the whole coma thing seems very odd"

Aye.

Very f***ing odd.

21 year old healthy American reels off paranoid Juche rhetoric is carted away and emerges a short time later in a coma which he doesnt wake from.

Just a little bit odd mind, I'm sure the nasty American deserved it though and he shouldnt have broken that ancient North Korean law of being from the wrong country at the wrong place at the wrong time. The bastard.
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He didn't deserve to die but he deserved to be in prison, simple as, he broke the law, theft and trespassing. He chose to be there and when you choose to go somewhere you should obey their laws, however daft you think they are.

There'll be plenty prisoners in the US (Syrian, Iranian, maybe even North Korean) whose embassies don't know they're there. That's what can happen when you have no political ties to a country.

How do you know he was tortured? The US have said no signs of physical harm. You're just guessing and half of your post is just made up shit.

And this is all without talking about Guantanamo, which like North Korea, no one really knows what has gone on, I could make up stuff like you have but there's not much point is there
 
What happened in NK to this lad is terrible and should be viewed as nothing less than a crime by the state.

But posters are right to put in context the gross injustices of the American legal system. There have been dozens of people executed in recent years where evidence has subsequently shown they were innocent, they were juveniles at the time of the offence or they suffered from severe mental illness.

Regarding forced labour it's quite common in the US. Read up on Sheriff joe arpaio and the conditions he left prisoners in in his "tent city".

There is a reason the US prison system is sometimes referred to as a modern day gulag. Apart from the fact they have the highest prison population in the world iirc (2.4m with 5m on parole), which is predominantly made up of black and Latino men, they have one of the highest rates of incarceration per capita (may be highest). This cheap prison labour serves an important function in their economy.

And while yes, this was a political decision to imprison the man to try and gain political leverage, which is completely heinous, the US are responsible for some pretty grotesque sentences as well. Under three strikes and youre out legislation there are still people in prison in the US who got life without possibility of parole for relatively minor offences (e.g. Drug possession, minor theft etc). Obama limited some of this damage but still thousands linger in prison for next to nowt.

All the while you have a judiciary which is run by money and where you have little chance if you're poor (and black) and a police force that in areas is institutionally corrupt and racist.

Anyway, my point isn't to take away from what a barbaric thing this lad went through, because it's genuinely horrific and my heart bleeds for him and his family. I can't imagine what they've been through. But we should also be aware of the injustices which sometimes exist in Western societies too and not just think "oh they're barbaric and we're so civilised". Undoubtably NK commit some terrible crimes against humanity, but so too do the USA.

chunkylover53 said:
Are you suggesting it wasn't a kangaroo court?
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Of course it was. But some courtrooms in the US are farcical and equally unjust.
 
haway said:
What happened in NK to this lad is terrible and should be viewed as nothing less than a crime by the state.

But posters are right to put in context the gross injustices of the American legal system. There have been dozens of people executed in recent years where evidence has subsequently shown they were innocent, they were juveniles at the time of the offence or they suffered from severe mental illness.

Regarding forced labour it's quite common in the US. Read up on Sheriff joe arpaio and the conditions he left prisoners in in his "tent city".

There is a reason the US prison system is sometimes referred to as a modern day gulag. Apart from the fact they have the highest prison population in the world iirc (2.4m with 5m on parole), which is predominantly made up of black and Latino men, they have one of the highest rates of incarceration per capita (may be highest). This cheap prison labour serves an important function in their economy.

And while yes, this was a political decision to imprison the man to try and gain political leverage, which is completely heinous, the US are responsible for some pretty grotesque sentences as well. Under three strikes and youre out legislation there are still people in prison in the US who got life without possibility of parole for relatively minor offences (e.g. Drug possession, minor theft etc). Obama limited some of this damage but still thousands linger in prison for next to nowt.

All the while you have a judiciary which is run by money and where you have little chance if you're poor (and black) and a police force that in areas is institutionally corrupt and racist.

Anyway, my point isn't to take away from what a barbaric thing this lad went through, because it's genuinely horrific and my heart bleeds for him and his family. I can't imagine what they've been through. But we should also be aware of the injustices which sometimes exist in Western societies too and not just think "oh they're barbaric and we're so civilised". Undoubtably NK commit some terrible crimes against humanity, but so too do the USA.


Of course it was. But some courtrooms in the US are farcical and equally unjust.
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Well said mate. Made my point far better than I could have.
 
The sooner that NK is sorted and them gulags are ended the better for that nation, whole country is like a massive prison with gulags specially for ones that upset the regime
 
templei said:
He didn't deserve to die but he deserved to be in prison, simple as, he broke the law, theft and trespassing. He chose to be there and when you choose to go somewhere you should obey their laws, however daft you think they are.

There'll be plenty prisoners in the US (Syrian, Iranian, maybe even North Korean) whose embassies don't know they're there. That's what can happen when you have no political ties to a country.

How do you know he was tortured? The US have said no signs of physical harm. You're just guessing and half of your post is just made up shit.

And this is all without talking about Guantanamo, which like North Korea, no one really knows what has gone on, I could make up stuff like you have but there's not much point is there
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Seems a pretty safe bet watching him read out a prepared statement that sounds like someone who only just speaks English and is loaded with propaganda. Unless you can suggest some other, more likely reason, he would do this. I'm sure a country that imprisons people's kids and grandkids for their wrongthink really looks after its prisoners.
 
RossTheNinja said:
Seems a pretty safe bet watching him read out a prepared statement that sounds like someone who only just speaks English and is loaded with propaganda. Unless you can suggest some other, more likely reason, he would do this. I'm sure a country that imprisons people's kids and grandkids for their wrongthink really looks after its prisoners.
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A country where their leader executes his uncle with an anti aircraft gun.

Great bunch of lads...
 
haway said:
What happened in NK to this lad is terrible and should be viewed as nothing less than a crime by the state.

But posters are right to put in context the gross injustices of the American legal system. There have been dozens of people executed in recent years where evidence has subsequently shown they were innocent, they were juveniles at the time of the offence or they suffered from severe mental illness.

Regarding forced labour it's quite common in the US. Read up on Sheriff joe arpaio and the conditions he left prisoners in in his "tent city".

There is a reason the US prison system is sometimes referred to as a modern day gulag. Apart from the fact they have the highest prison population in the world iirc (2.4m with 5m on parole), which is predominantly made up of black and Latino men, they have one of the highest rates of incarceration per capita (may be highest). This cheap prison labour serves an important function in their economy.

And while yes, this was a political decision to imprison the man to try and gain political leverage, which is completely heinous, the US are responsible for some pretty grotesque sentences as well. Under three strikes and youre out legislation there are still people in prison in the US who got life without possibility of parole for relatively minor offences (e.g. Drug possession, minor theft etc). Obama limited some of this damage but still thousands linger in prison for next to nowt.

All the while you have a judiciary which is run by money and where you have little chance if you're poor (and black) and a police force that in areas is institutionally corrupt and racist.

Anyway, my point isn't to take away from what a barbaric thing this lad went through, because it's genuinely horrific and my heart bleeds for him and his family. I can't imagine what they've been through. But we should also be aware of the injustices which sometimes exist in Western societies too and not just think "oh they're barbaric and we're so civilised". Undoubtably NK commit some terrible crimes against humanity, but so too do the USA.


Of course it was. But some courtrooms in the US are farcical and equally unjust.
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Equally unjust is not true

The US system is a mess but it's not the same degree
 
RossTheNinja said:
Seems a pretty safe bet watching him read out a prepared statement that sounds like someone who only just speaks English and is loaded with propaganda. Unless you can suggest some other, more likely reason, he would do this. I'm sure a country that imprisons people's kids and grandkids for their wrongthink really looks after its prisoners.
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You're probably right but it's still a guess at this stage. It is also horrific whatever country it happens in, however the American government can't really complain too much about torturing when you read things like this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rtured-man-freed-without-charge-a7371666.html

No one is condoning the gulags in North Korea, we are simply saying that the guy committed a crime, was charged and sentenced. What happened next is awful but similar things happen in the US (or Guantanamo) in some cases without charges ever being brought.
 
chunkylover53 said:
Equally unjust is not true

The US system is a mess but it's not the same degree
Click to expand...

Some courtrooms in the US are equally unjust. I can give some pretty horrific examples of terrible miscarriages of justice. (E.g. the one where the judge was on the payroll of the prison and he sentenced a load of kids to 2 or 3 year sentences+ because he was getting paid by the prison for the number of kids he imprisoned). Can't remember all the details and can't be arsed to search it but he eventually got a custodial sentence himself for it, because there were children (12, 13, 14) who wound up in prison for 4 or 5 years all because of minor offences (e.g. caught with weed, fight at school). And he would keep refusing them to be released, because he was getting paid for it.
 
haway said:
Some courtrooms in the US are equally unjust. I can give some pretty horrific examples of terrible miscarriages of justice. (E.g. the one where the judge was on the payroll of the prison and he sentenced a load of kids to 2 or 3 year sentences+ because he was getting paid by the prison for the number of kids he imprisoned). Can't remember all the details and can't be arsed to search it but he eventually got a custodial sentence himself for it, because there were children (12, 13, 14) who wound up in prison for 4 or 5 years all because of minor offences (e.g. caught with weed, fight at school). And he would keep refusing them to be released, because he was getting paid for it.
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That was an episode of Law and Order man!;)
 
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