NHS provokes fury with indefinite surgery ban for smokers and obese

Frijj said:
As is often stated and often replied on here

The vast majority of the population aren’t muscled gym goers

Most are flabby couch potatoes for whom BMI is an entirely suitable measure

If you’re in shape ignore your BMI

If not, pay attention to it
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Thats the trouble though, the new rules say anyone who is obese wont get an operation.
 


Frijj said:
As is often stated and often replied on here

The vast majority of the population aren’t muscled gym goers

Most are flabby couch potatoes for whom BMI is an entirely suitable measure

If you’re in shape ignore your BMI

If not, pay attention to it
Click to expand...
BMI is a very simple broad tool to make distinctions without any real basis on body shape, composition.

Im 5'10" and 15 stone. My BMI is about 30ish so classed as overweight. However body fat of 18% which at the lower end of average so i cant be both lol
 
pavarotti1980 said:
BMI is a very simple broad tool to make distinctions without any real basis on body shape, composition.

Im 5'10" and 15 stone. My BMI is about 30ish so classed as overweight. However body fat of 18% which at the lower end of average so i cant be both lol
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Overweight is defined as a BMI of 25 to 29.9; obesity is defined as a BMI equal to or greater than 30. If you fall in the obese range according to the guidelines, you are at increased risk for heart disease and need to lose weight

Sorry mate but you sound a bit to obese to me, no operations for you.

I just did my BMI here https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/BodyMassIndex.aspx

My results
Body mass index (BMI) = 30.3
Obese.
 
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Frijj said:
This is where people are getting caught up IMO

It isn’t that the condition that necessiatates a procedure is smoking related it is that being a smoker affects your ability to get better after surgery

As @Sir Lancelot says - smokers’ wounds heal slower. They’re more vulnerable to healthcare acquired infections because of this.

Smokers also have greater likelihood of anaesthesia complications, their bones heal slower, their respiratory system is poorer etc
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But such a blanket statement leads to you playing god. Someone fails the breath test. They should be denied life saving surgery even though they are at very little risk from complications of the surgery. It's a very slippery slope IMO.
I'm all for self policing your health but don't like the idea of people playing god with others lives , and that's aside from the fact I'm convinced this will be the first step on a filthy road to private medical insurance all round.
 
niceonemarra said:
Overweight is defined as a BMI of 25 to 29.9; obesity is defined as a BMI equal to or greater than 30. If you fall in the obese range according to the guidelines, you are at increased risk for heart disease and need to lose weight

Sorry mate but you sound a bit to obese to me, no operations for you.

I just did my BMI here https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/BodyMassIndex.aspx

My results
Body mass index (BMI) = 30.3
Obese.
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Mine is exactly 30 and coming up with overweight. 1kg heavier makes me obsese. Prepared for a life of ruin and no treatment now
 
niceonemarra said:
A lot of people on here will be obese without even realising it, i did a bmi test on a machine it said i am obese and i'm quite thin. One of my mates also got obese and he is a regular gym goer and is not fat at all.
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My brother was told he was obese when he was down to 6% body fat by a nurse who didn't realise these things don't work for outliers.
She should have been asking what he had been taking and the training he had been doing to get to that body shape as those are definitely bad for your health but no she went with you are a muscle bound fat mat.
 
Oh look they have separated "them" from "us" and set everyone against each other. I'm sure this has nothing to do with wanting a gateway to forcing "them" to take out special insurance effectively starting the removal of universal health care. And Im also sure we wont find "us" becoming "them" further down the line.
 
MattyM 09/109 said:
Oh look they have separated "them" from "us" and set everyone against each other. I'm sure this has nothing to do with wanting a gateway to forcing "them" to take out special insurance effectively starting the removal of universal health care. And Im also sure we wont find "us" becoming "them" further down the line.
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Ironically, if a lot of people with type 2 diabetes lost a couple of stone rapidly they wouldn't need the NHS.

I think the time has come for people to take responsibility for their lives instead of expecting thousands spent on them because they cannot take some simple measures to stay moderately healthy.
 
Harry Angstrom said:
Ironically, if a lot of people with type 2 diabetes lost a couple of stone rapidly they wouldn't need the NHS.

I think the time has come for people to take responsibility for their lives instead of expecting thousands spent on them because they cannot take some simple measures to stay moderately healthy.
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You happy with private insurance all round then ? As once that’s put in for smokers and the obese you’ll be in the minority....
 
Harry Angstrom said:
Ironically, if a lot of people with type 2 diabetes lost a couple of stone rapidly they wouldn't need the NHS.

I think the time has come for people to take responsibility for their lives instead of expecting thousands spent on them because they cannot take some simple measures to stay moderately healthy.
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I am all for what you say Harry. People have to make some effort to change their lifestyles as type 2 is self inflicted no other cause whatsoever, and once diagnosed will cost on average over £14,000 per person per year by way of NHS and Social care.

Unfortunately there's now over 4 million with diabetes in the UK and by far the biggest percentage being type 2. There is also an estimated 1 million with it and not even diagnosed yet.

Apparently Bariatric surgery can prevent and reverse Type 2 at a cost of around £3,995 to £15,000 throughout the UK. Gastric Band prices typically cost between £5,000 and £8,000. Gastric Balloon prices typically cost between £2,000 and £5,000. Gastric Bypass prices typically cost between£9,500 and 15,000. but once done and lifestyle changes could make a big difference for the patient and the NHS

Surely at this rate the burden to the UK is untenable and not acceptable. Yes by becoming diabetic you have obviously spent more on food and drink and contributed in paying tax and vat ...but its comes at a significant cost in ill health and premature death to you as a person.

Surely its a no-brainer ?
 
raindog said:
I am all for what you say Harry. People have to make some effort to change their lifestyles as type 2 is self inflicted no other cause whatsoever, and once diagnosed will cost on average over £14,000 per person per year by way of NHS and Social care.

Unfortunately there's now over 4 million with diabetes in the UK and by far the biggest percentage being type 2. There is also an estimated 1 million with it and not even diagnosed yet.

Apparently Bariatric surgery can prevent and reverse Type 2 at a cost of around £3,995 to £15,000 throughout the UK. Gastric Band prices typically cost between £5,000 and £8,000. Gastric Balloon prices typically cost between £2,000 and £5,000. Gastric Bypass prices typically cost between£9,500 and 15,000. but once done and lifestyle changes could make a big difference for the patient and the NHS

Surely at this rate the burden to the UK is untenable and not acceptable. Yes by becoming diabetic you have obviously spent more on food and drink and contributed in paying tax and vat ...but its comes at a significant cost in ill health and premature death to you as a person.

Surely its a no-brainer ?
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Whereabouts do you get your figures from for the average £14,000 per patient?

NHS England quote £6billion costs for treatment and complications for type 2 diabetes patients. 4 million patients which works out around £1,500 per patient per year. Are social costs making up the remaining £12,500 per patient?

NHS England » Flagship NHS Type 2 Diabetes Prevention Programme exceeds expectations as patients shed the weight of 15 double cheese burgers

ps its not just obesity and poor diet that are responsible for developing type 2 diabetes
 
raindog said:
I am all for what you say Harry. People have to make some effort to change their lifestyles as type 2 is self inflicted no other cause whatsoever, and once diagnosed will cost on average over £14,000 per person per year by way of NHS and Social care.

Unfortunately there's now over 4 million with diabetes in the UK and by far the biggest percentage being type 2. There is also an estimated 1 million with it and not even diagnosed yet.

Apparently Bariatric surgery can prevent and reverse Type 2 at a cost of around £3,995 to £15,000 throughout the UK. Gastric Band prices typically cost between £5,000 and £8,000. Gastric Balloon prices typically cost between £2,000 and £5,000. Gastric Bypass prices typically cost between£9,500 and 15,000. but once done and lifestyle changes could make a big difference for the patient and the NHS

Surely at this rate the burden to the UK is untenable and not acceptable. Yes by becoming diabetic you have obviously spent more on food and drink and contributed in paying tax and vat ...but its comes at a significant cost in ill health and premature death to you as a person.

Surely its a no-brainer ?
Click to expand...

Same with drinkers. No treatment for them. Sunbathers? Cancerous twats the lot of them. Smokers? Well wait them out they'll die off soon anyway. You broke your leg riding a horse? Here's some plaster of Paris deal with it yourself and make some lifestyle changes or its £1500 if you want help. Drug overdose? Die in the street we'll collect the corpse later you dirty fuck.

In marginally more seriousness we need to be looking at holistic approaches to obesity. The sugar tax is one - it has actually made soft drink makers reformulate their ingredients which is a start. We need to make the fast food/sugary snacks culture less appealing. Saying "oh well you wont get treatment on the nhs" wont work because the whole problem is that people are doing something for immediate gratification. They dont just not know there are massive issues with a shitty diet, they have just been trained to know "shit food = happy", hell in most cases theres a loop of "shit food = happy = guilt for shit food = need to be happy = goto 1", hoying even more pressure on breaking the loop isnt gonna do shit other than in many cases make it worse and hoy in some severe depression. Painting all chubsters as horrid "others" who drain our taxes and ruin our otherwise perfect NHS isnt gonna do shit other than make the problem much much worse.

FWIW a drug just got through trials in the US which reduces appetite without the usual heart problems, I reckon almost every pharma company on the planet is looking for that holy grail so maybe there's hope in sight.
 
MattyM 09/109 said:
Same with drinkers. No treatment for them. Sunbathers? Cancerous twats the lot of them. Smokers? Well wait them out they'll die off soon anyway. You broke your leg riding a horse? Here's some plaster of Paris deal with it yourself and make some lifestyle changes or its £1500 if you want help. Drug overdose? Die in the street we'll collect the corpse later you dirty fuck.

In marginally more seriousness we need to be looking at holistic approaches to obesity. The sugar tax is one - it has actually made soft drink makers reformulate their ingredients which is a start. We need to make the fast food/sugary snacks culture less appealing. Saying "oh well you wont get treatment on the nhs" wont work because the whole problem is that people are doing something for immediate gratification. They dont just not know there are massive issues with a shitty diet, they have just been trained to know "shit food = happy", hell in most cases theres a loop of "shit food = happy = guilt for shit food = need to be happy = goto 1", hoying even more pressure on breaking the loop isnt gonna do shit other than in many cases make it worse and hoy in some severe depression. Painting all chubsters as horrid "others" who drain our taxes and ruin our otherwise perfect NHS isnt gonna do shit other than make the problem much much worse.

FWIW a drug just got through trials in the US which reduces appetite without the usual heart problems, I reckon almost every pharma company on the planet is looking for that holy grail so maybe there's hope in sight.
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I agree with the majority of your post apart from the last paragraph

That drug is unlikely to get approved in the EU. The manufacturer applied for marketing authorisation with the EMA in 2013 but withdrew the application when they were asked to some questions regarding their trial data. I think the median result of the drug was a weight reduction of 9lbs in 40 months which to be honest is 5hite. they have never come back with answers and never resubmitted their application in the preceeding 5 years so i would suspect that it is either very unlikely to come to market and if it does will have heavily regulated use. This is mainly due to poor outcomes and high cost. Never a good combination for the NHS to approve.

There is a big difference in US as the FDA are more relaxed in their approach to approvals as cost effectiveness is not so much of an issue due to the insurance companies being largely responsible for costs and nobody to such as NICE/CMUs or local procurement to drive down the price.
 
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MattyM 09/109 said:
Same with drinkers. No treatment for them. Sunbathers? Cancerous twats the lot of them. Smokers? Well wait them out they'll die off soon anyway. You broke your leg riding a horse? Here's some plaster of Paris deal with it yourself and make some lifestyle changes or its £1500 if you want help. Drug overdose? Die in the street we'll collect the corpse later you dirty fuck.

In marginally more seriousness we need to be looking at holistic approaches to obesity. The sugar tax is one - it has actually made soft drink makers reformulate their ingredients which is a start. We need to make the fast food/sugary snacks culture less appealing. Saying "oh well you wont get treatment on the nhs" wont work because the whole problem is that people are doing something for immediate gratification. They dont just not know there are massive issues with a shitty diet, they have just been trained to know "shit food = happy", hell in most cases theres a loop of "shit food = happy = guilt for shit food = need to be happy = goto 1", hoying even more pressure on breaking the loop isnt gonna do shit other than in many cases make it worse and hoy in some severe depression. Painting all chubsters as horrid "others" who drain our taxes and ruin our otherwise perfect NHS isnt gonna do shit other than make the problem much much worse.

FWIW a drug just got through trials in the US which reduces appetite without the usual heart problems, I reckon almost every pharma company on the planet is looking for that holy grail so maybe there's hope in sight.
Click to expand...
I reckon they'll be loads of anorexics gagging to get their hands on those.
 
pavarotti1980 said:
Whereabouts do you get your figures from for the average £14,000 per patient?

NHS England quote £6billion costs for treatment and complications for type 2 diabetes patients. 4 million patients which works out around £1,500 per patient per year. Are social costs making up the remaining £12,500 per patient?

NHS England » Flagship NHS Type 2 Diabetes Prevention Programme exceeds expectations as patients shed the weight of 15 double cheese burgers

ps its not just obesity and poor diet that are responsible for developing type 2 diabetes
Click to expand...

Currently nearly 10 billion
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/resources-s3/2017-11/diabetes uk cost of diabetes report.pdf

this figure does not include social care either

Social care These figures do not include the costs of diabetes in social care. However, we do know that one in four care home residents have diabetes8 . In the USA, 16.4 per cent of the cost of nursing and residential facilities is attributable to diabetes9 . In the UK this figure may be lower as diabetes prevalence is lower.

Indirect costs While this is an underdeveloped area of research, the costs of reduced productivity at work (due to people with diabetes not working because of death or poor health or working at a lower level of productivity) are estimated at nearly £9billion12.

etc etc
 

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