i've been following okc. managed to see the last 10 minutes of the game last night. i hate james harden. the amount of points he gets from the free throw line after trapping his defender in a screen and hooking his arm under the defenders arm while taking a bogus three attempt is ridiculous
NBA
- Thread starter LondonMackem
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LondonMackem
Striker
It's true he gets to the free throw line a lot because he's great at drawing fouls, but to say he's looking to shoot bogus 3's is a bit much
he's shooting 35% from 3 this season.
SYB_DC
Winger
It's true he gets to the free throw line a lot because he's great at drawing fouls, but to say he's looking to shoot bogus 3's is a bit much
35% isn't particularly good, especially for someone who shoots them with the volume Harden does. He does try to get fouled out there when his alternative is launching a bad shot, which he does with pretty significant frequency anyway. I can't blame him for some of the shit he does, though: that team doesn't have too many other offensive options.
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LondonMackem
Striker
He puts up 9 a game, hitting over 3 of them. He's played as the PG this season so isn't shooting as much and is assisting more. Not sure what you've been watching this season if you're saying there aren't other offensive options on that team, he's surrounded by shooters
Ariza, Gordon, Anderson, Beverley, Williams can all shoot the 3 ball with ease. That's why he's been so successful, driving the lane and kicking it out to the floor spacers.
SYB_DC
Winger
He puts up 9 a game, hitting over 3 of them. He's played as the PG this season so isn't shooting as much and is assisting more. Not sure what you've been watching this season if you're saying there aren't other offensive options on that team, he's surrounded by shooters
Uh, you just listed a bunch of guys (save Anderson, who can shoot) who play shooting positions but aren't especially good shooters, and all of them except Williams are absolute shit at creating their own shots. These are guys who are shooting well under 40% on scads of wide-open spot-up 3s created entirely by Harden when he drives and the wings collapse down on him. Houston is dead in the middle of the pack in the league in terms of 3-point shooting, and only 4 teams that made the playoffs shot worse on 3s in the regular season.
What you described in an attempt to disagree is basically exactly what I was describing: a one-man offense that forces a natural 2 to play the point, forces him to drive constantly in an attempt to get to the line, and gives him a host of mediocre shooting options as his kick-outs. The reason they win is that Harden is really, really good: he's excellent putting the ball on the floor, a very good passer with good vision, and a good enough shooter that teams can't sag off of him or undercut screens.
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https://streamable.com/php0f
https://streamable.com/ona4c
https://streamable.com/scr66
https://streamable.com/m3mgw
https://streamable.com/f8a8w
https://streamable.com/0epqh
with the last of those you get a good look at the way he scoops his left arm under the defender's arm then throws his hands up to shoot. he does it all the time. it's intentional and his goal is to get to the line
https://streamable.com/ona4c
https://streamable.com/scr66
https://streamable.com/m3mgw
https://streamable.com/f8a8w
https://streamable.com/0epqh
with the last of those you get a good look at the way he scoops his left arm under the defender's arm then throws his hands up to shoot. he does it all the time. it's intentional and his goal is to get to the line
LondonMackem
Striker
They're not poor shooters at all
Beverley isn't great, but Gordon and Williams CAN shoot, lets not forget Gordon won the 3pt contest this year in the All Star break.Also, this season Houston set the all-time record for three-pointers made by an NBA team in a single season surpassing the Warriors’ 2015-2016 total (1,077). Houston averaged 14.4 three-pointers made of 40.1 attempts per game, a full seven more attempts than next on the list (Cleveland, 33.5).
Mike D'Antoni has built this team to play to his system and it's working. Harden has been unstoppable this season, but he has a decent team around him.
SYB_DC
Winger
They're not poor shooters at all
Also, this season Houston set the all-time record for three-pointers made by an NBA team in a single season surpassing the Warriors’ 2015-2016 total (1,077). Houston averaged 14.4 three-pointers made of 40.1 attempts per game, a full seven more attempts than next on the list (Cleveland, 33.5).
Mike D'Antoni has built this team to play to his system and it's working. Harden has been unstoppable this season, but he has a decent team around him.
They're not awful or poor shooters, but they're not especially good either. Jacking up 3s is by far the most sensible strategy provided your shooters are at least decent and you can get them good looks (as in, can shoot 3s well enough to get a higher effective field goal percentage than shooting contested 2 point shots); it's a logical (and welcome) outgrowth of the application of analytics to basketball. That said, having one very good shooter (Anderson) and having a host of ok ones (the rest of them) is a far better outcome than having a guy out there chucking who can't shoot 3s at all and it's the most efficient way to do things given the strictures of the salary cap. D'Antoni's system is lights out at creating points in the regular season given someone who can both drive and pass - remember the Steve Nash Suns? - and ugly as sin when it lacks that (cough, Carmelo).
Other than Harden, Anderson is the key guy - having someone who can shoot at the 4 means you can stretch the baselines even more to create driving space, while also providing room for pick and roll using Capela rolling down the lane or pick and pop with Anderson. You simply can't play that system with more than 1 guy out there who isn't at least a passable 3-point shooter, for the precise reason that the system requires you to shoot a lot of 3s. Gordon and Ariza in particular are simply commodity-type NBA players who can stand around and jack 3s competently and stay out of the way. They have the discipline to maintain their spacing, which is what they need on offense. But let's not confuse a system that's built around creating the space to have 4 guys jack (open) 3s in unprecedented volume (note that the Rockets didn't just set the all time record for makes, but also for attempts) means that those guys are good shooters. They're all at least decent, which is the point, but not much more (again, Anderson excepted).
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LondonMackem
Striker
Fair enough, you make some good points.
SYB_DC
Winger
As do you. I love D'Antoni's teams, by the way - I'm just glad he has the players to make it work again.
LondonMackem
Striker
Agreed mate. Cavs fan, but the Rockets have been my clear 2nd favourite team to watch this year.
SYB_DC
Winger
In a lot of ways, the Cavs are somewhat similar but without the frantic pace. 1 megastar that draws the whole defense and 3 other shooters at any given time. The Cavs are just better at it.
The Spezial One
Striker
Well articulated. D'Antoni's system is ideal for regular season ball but when playoffs arrive and the play is slowed down and intensified he can't adapt. They've been handed a kind draw in OKC but don't expect them to put up any kind of test for anyone of any worth in the West.
2 superstars.
SYB_DC
Winger
Who, Irving? He's a very good player, but that team is built around LeBron and they're awful without him. Irving is a deserving All-Star and probably one of the top 25 players in the league. LeBron is without any reasonable doubt one of the best 5 players ever. Not putting them in the same class is no slight on Irving. Without Irving and Love, James almost beat the Warriors by himself. Despite all his achievements before that, I wasn't a believer until then, but that ended all doubts. That was just ridiculous. Kyrie Irving isn't going out there and scoring 35 a night in the NBA finals with no supporting cast.
LondonMackem
Striker
In my previous reply I was gonna state they're extremely similar. Lebron and Harden draw so much attention that it gives shooters open looks. Korver's lights out, Frye is the best 7ft shooter in the league, Irving can shoot, JR can get hot, Love's won a 3pt contest in the past when he was at the Twolves, etc. I sometimes wonder why Lebron jacks up 3's... it's unnecessary. Just drive and layup/pass.
Look at the Cavs record this year without Lebron. I don't think we even won a game from memory. That's how good he is. You put him on any team in the league and they immediately become a playoff competitor.
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SYB_DC
Winger
Except for the bold bit, that's pretty close, although Irving's better than anyone else on the Rockets and can also run things exceptionally well when LeBron needs to take it easy for a few possessions.
On the bold, I'm curious as to how much basketball you've actually played (not an insult, just wondering). It's very difficult to drive if you can't shoot, because the defense just sags off you to the point where any time you try to drive, you have no room to operate: you can never get an open shot within your range (and especially not a layup or dunk) because there's no space to beat your man cleanly without running into some huge dude with 11 foot long arms who exists to block shots. Worse, it means the defender who's backed off you is in better position to help on other players, trap in the post, and rebound. If you can make them guard you out to 21 or 22 feet, you open up a whole host of possibilities for yourself (mid-range pull ups, drive and dish on an internal pass once the guy defending the lane steps up) plus you pull your defender out from being able to help on everyone else. Look at how Rajon Rondo and Ricky Rubio get defended - that's what happens if you can drive but can't shoot. Another example is Washington - the biggest difference there between the middling teams of their last couple years and a pretty good one this time is that Otto Porter can shoot now, which opens up driving lanes for Wall.
The Spezial One
Striker
He's the biggest mismatch sat his position in the league though. LBJ is a phenom, Kyrienis a bonafide superstar. And clutch.
SYB_DC
Winger
Biggest mismatch how? LeBron is pretty much unguardable by anyone. Irving is not big enough or athletic enough that he can't be stopped. It's hard to say he's that big a mismatch when Westbrook is sitting out there averaging a triple-double and Harden's out there winning 55 games by himself. Irving would have trouble averaging 10 boards in an empty gym. Clutch, I'll give you that.
The Spezial One
Striker
Because the game is played at more than one end of the floor. He's proved it when it's time to show up in big big games the others haven't. And that's in a team with LBJ in it.
Padding stats doesn't mean a thing when it comes to playing to actually win. That's why LBJ only has 55 triple doubles in 14 years.
And for what it's worth I'm a huge huge fan of Russ. He's a freak but I'd say he relies heavily on his athleticism rather than game IQ.
LondonMackem
Striker
I agree that you have to give the defence a headache where they don't know whether to get tight or sag off. But there's times where Lebron gets the mismatch off the pick and roll then shoots a three.. just bully them in the post or drive, as Lebron is almost unstoppable when driving to the rim. Maybe it's an age thing, and he doesn't want to get banged up.
Westbrook gets a triple double every game because his team are basically D league. Russell shoots nearly everything. The only other guys who can shoot with any decency are Oladipo and McDermott. Oh, and Adams just seems let him grab boards. Didn't Adams have like 2 rebounds against the Rockets in game 4? He's 7ft..
Agreed. His basketball IQ isn't good at all, and that's why he bricks poor percentage shots late in games when they're trailing.
