Metro 2019



This has got to be a dying industry profession though that can easily be replaced by driverless technology. If we are almost there with autonomous cars and planes fly most of their journey via auto pilot, surely it is a far easier proposition to have an automated system to move a train along a track? Cannot see why this is not already with us. The demands of the drivers for such a ridiculous wage will drive seal their fates. I cannot see how anything they do at all justifies their outrageous opinion of their role.
 
Bunk said:
This has got to be a dying industry profession though that can easily be replaced by driverless technology. If we are almost there with autonomous cars and planes fly most of their journey via auto pilot, surely it is a far easier proposition to have an automated system to move a train along a track? Cannot see why this is not already with us. The demands of the drivers for such a ridiculous wage will drive seal their fates. I cannot see how anything they do at all justifies their outrageous opinion of their role.
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Easily?
If it was easy, then it would have been done by now.
The cost of making the Tyne and Wear Metro with all of the technology required for a driverless system like the D.L.R. would be astronomical my friend.
Plus the Metro uses tracks that are part of the national rail system, so that little argument goes out of the window.
And of course what you regard as a ridiculous wage, is not ridiculous as regards to the people who do the actual job.
 
Butcher's Coat said:
Easily?
If it was easy, then it would have been done by now.
The cost of making the Tyne and Wear Metro with all of the technology required for a driverless system like the D.L.R. would be astronomical my friend.
Plus the Metro uses tracks that are part of the national rail system, so that little argument goes out of the window.
And of course what you regard as a ridiculous wage, is not ridiculous as regards to the people who do the actual job.
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😂😂😂Easily replaced
 
EDGE said:
Less money available for infrastructure I assume. This could lead to cutting back of services.
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They’ve already had to cut back services because of the fact they’re using 40 year old trains that are about 10 years beyond their design life. So no.
Bunk said:
This has got to be a dying industry profession though that can easily be replaced by driverless technology. If we are almost there with autonomous cars and planes fly most of their journey via auto pilot, surely it is a far easier proposition to have an automated system to move a train along a track? Cannot see why this is not already with us. The demands of the drivers for such a ridiculous wage will drive seal their fates. I cannot see how anything they do at all justifies their outrageous opinion of their role.
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You don’t understand how the rail system works do you?
 
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West_Winger said:
They’ve already had to cut back services because of the fact they’re using 40 year old trains that are about 10 years beyond their design life. So no.


You don’t understand how the rail system works do you?
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Why no? If the money in the system is being diverted to wages how will the services not be cut if they are already struggling?
 
Bunk said:
This has got to be a dying industry profession though that can easily be replaced by driverless technology. If we are almost there with autonomous cars and planes fly most of their journey via auto pilot, surely it is a far easier proposition to have an automated system to move a train along a track? Cannot see why this is not already with us. The demands of the drivers for such a ridiculous wage will drive seal their fates. I cannot see how anything they do at all justifies their outrageous opinion of their role.
Click to expand...

If it was that easy and that cost effective the would have looked into doing it by now. It isn't and they haven't. Simple as that.
 
TLDR version: don't kid yourselves, automation is already here.

West_Winger said:
You don’t understand how the rail system works do you?
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And you don't understand how Cyber Physical Systems and automation works, do you?

I am currently working with a team developing object-avoidance systems for drones to operated autonomously in hazardous environments. Compared to that, moving a train along a set route at set speeds with set stops.... Honestly, the concept for this whole system is something that undergrads could crack out for a project. The whole rail infrastructure is already interconnected and a stones through away from adding this technology. If anything, the human driver is the weakest link and without it, we would have a safer and more reliable service. Have a look at some stats with regards to accidents and incidents: after mechanical malfunction, human factor the next biggest factor with many incidents citing "driver inattention" as the cause as they over speed around a bend or pass through signals. A CPS does not tire, does not become distracted, doesn't need a break - it just gets one with it.


Butcher's Coat said:
If it was easy, then it would have been done by now.
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The only thing stopping this is the inevitable disruption caused by industrial action as the drivers - if the Metro was being commission now, human drivers would not be part of the equation.

partridge amongst the pig said:
If it was that easy and that cost effective the would have looked into doing it by now. It isn't and they haven't. Simple as that.
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They have:
Autonomous trains - article from International Rail Journal

from the article:
  • Fully-automated metros have been around since 1981 when the first line opened in Kobe, Japan.
  • Rio Tinto completed the transition to full automatic driverless operation of its entire heavy-haul rail system in the Pilbara region of Western Australia on June 14 making it the world’s first fully-automated mainline rail network
  • Full automation is already reaping benefits for Rio Tinto in terms of lower operating costs, shorter journey times, and greater reliability
  • also improving the efficiency of scheduling, helping to eliminate bottlenecks on the network, and boosting productivity.
  • Following 18 months of research, French National Railways (SNCF) completed its first test run in July with a remotely-controlled locomotive- hauled autonomous train, as part of a project to develop driverless passenger and freight train prototypes by 2022.
Action like we have witnessed recently in the North East, as well as disruption to the commuters of the South East, along with what feels like a regular threat of action to disrupt the Tube (lead by the appropriately named Mike Ca$h) do the drivers no favours with the public. On the metro, they are probably on a higher income than 90% of the people who suffer their service daily. The wages of these drivers is ludicrously high for the complexity of their work - how much skill is really required? More than that of a nurse or a teacher? Do they face more hazards than that of a fireman or the police. Are they under more stress than a paramedic. A frontline squaddie on deployment...? Of course not. They pull and push a leaver to make their bus-on-wheels go or stop (obviously there is slightly more to it than that but come on, really, compared to other professions?) The reason for the wage is simple: the unions have being able to threaten vast amounts of disruption to the economy and hold the nation hostage.

With a growing population and environmental targets, the development and modernisation of the mass transport systems is vital as is improvements with freight. Drivers are expensive, undependable and fallible. It won't be long before human drivers of such systems are an anachronism and soon, our children will be gobsmacked that we would have relied on something as unreliable as a human train driver.
 
Bunk said:
TLDR version: don't kid yourselves, automation is already here.


And you don't understand how Cyber Physical Systems and automation works, do you?

I am currently working with a team developing object-avoidance systems for drones to operated autonomously in hazardous environments. Compared to that, moving a train along a set route at set speeds with set stops.... Honestly, the concept for this whole system is something that undergrads could crack out for a project. The whole rail infrastructure is already interconnected and a stones through away from adding this technology. If anything, the human driver is the weakest link and without it, we would have a safer and more reliable service. Have a look at some stats with regards to accidents and incidents: after mechanical malfunction, human factor the next biggest factor with many incidents citing "driver inattention" as the cause as they over speed around a bend or pass through signals. A CPS does not tire, does not become distracted, doesn't need a break - it just gets one with it.



The only thing stopping this is the inevitable disruption caused by industrial action as the drivers - if the Metro was being commission now, human drivers would not be part of the equation.


They have:
Autonomous trains - article from International Rail Journal

from the article:
  • Fully-automated metros have been around since 1981 when the first line opened in Kobe, Japan.
  • Rio Tinto completed the transition to full automatic driverless operation of its entire heavy-haul rail system in the Pilbara region of Western Australia on June 14 making it the world’s first fully-automated mainline rail network
  • Full automation is already reaping benefits for Rio Tinto in terms of lower operating costs, shorter journey times, and greater reliability
  • also improving the efficiency of scheduling, helping to eliminate bottlenecks on the network, and boosting productivity.
  • Following 18 months of research, French National Railways (SNCF) completed its first test run in July with a remotely-controlled locomotive- hauled autonomous train, as part of a project to develop driverless passenger and freight train prototypes by 2022.
Action like we have witnessed recently in the North East, as well as disruption to the commuters of the South East, along with what feels like a regular threat of action to disrupt the Tube (lead by the appropriately named Mike Ca$h) do the drivers no favours with the public. On the metro, they are probably on a higher income than 90% of the people who suffer their service daily. The wages of these drivers is ludicrously high for the complexity of their work - how much skill is really required? More than that of a nurse or a teacher? Do they face more hazards than that of a fireman or the police. Are they under more stress than a paramedic. A frontline squaddie on deployment...? Of course not. They pull and push a leaver to make their bus-on-wheels go or stop (obviously there is slightly more to it than that but come on, really, compared to other professions?) The reason for the wage is simple: the unions have being able to threaten vast amounts of disruption to the economy and hold the nation hostage.

With a growing population and environmental targets, the development and modernisation of the mass transport systems is vital as is improvements with freight. Drivers are expensive, undependable and fallible. It won't be long before human drivers of such systems are an anachronism and soon, our children will be gobsmacked that we would have relied on something as unreliable as a human train driver.
Click to expand...

The Paris Metro recently automated one line. It cost £600 million.

So, how are you planning to pay for this automation exactly?
 
Bunk said:
TLDR version: don't kid yourselves, automation is already here.


And you don't understand how Cyber Physical Systems and automation works, do you?

I am currently working with a team developing object-avoidance systems for drones to operated autonomously in hazardous environments. Compared to that, moving a train along a set route at set speeds with set stops.... Honestly, the concept for this whole system is something that undergrads could crack out for a project. The whole rail infrastructure is already interconnected and a stones through away from adding this technology. If anything, the human driver is the weakest link and without it, we would have a safer and more reliable service. Have a look at some stats with regards to accidents and incidents: after mechanical malfunction, human factor the next biggest factor with many incidents citing "driver inattention" as the cause as they over speed around a bend or pass through signals. A CPS does not tire, does not become distracted, doesn't need a break - it just gets one with it.



The only thing stopping this is the inevitable disruption caused by industrial action as the drivers - if the Metro was being commission now, human drivers would not be part of the equation.


They have:
Autonomous trains - article from International Rail Journal

from the article:
  • Fully-automated metros have been around since 1981 when the first line opened in Kobe, Japan.
  • Rio Tinto completed the transition to full automatic driverless operation of its entire heavy-haul rail system in the Pilbara region of Western Australia on June 14 making it the world’s first fully-automated mainline rail network
  • Full automation is already reaping benefits for Rio Tinto in terms of lower operating costs, shorter journey times, and greater reliability
  • also improving the efficiency of scheduling, helping to eliminate bottlenecks on the network, and boosting productivity.
  • Following 18 months of research, French National Railways (SNCF) completed its first test run in July with a remotely-controlled locomotive- hauled autonomous train, as part of a project to develop driverless passenger and freight train prototypes by 2022.
Action like we have witnessed recently in the North East, as well as disruption to the commuters of the South East, along with what feels like a regular threat of action to disrupt the Tube (lead by the appropriately named Mike Ca$h) do the drivers no favours with the public. On the metro, they are probably on a higher income than 90% of the people who suffer their service daily. The wages of these drivers is ludicrously high for the complexity of their work - how much skill is really required? More than that of a nurse or a teacher? Do they face more hazards than that of a fireman or the police. Are they under more stress than a paramedic. A frontline squaddie on deployment...? Of course not. They pull and push a leaver to make their bus-on-wheels go or stop (obviously there is slightly more to it than that but come on, really, compared to other professions?) The reason for the wage is simple: the unions have being able to threaten vast amounts of disruption to the economy and hold the nation hostage.

With a growing population and environmental targets, the development and modernisation of the mass transport systems is vital as is improvements with freight. Drivers are expensive, undependable and fallible. It won't be long before human drivers of such systems are an anachronism and soon, our children will be gobsmacked that we would have relied on something as unreliable as a human train driver.
Click to expand...

I think the key here is cost effective mate.
 
partridge amongst the pig said:
I think the key here is cost effective mate.
Click to expand...

Nah. £600 million for a 10 mile stretch of one metro line is great value when the Tyne and Wear metro is 50 miles. Especially when the new £500 million fleet doesn’t have automation in mind and especially when a huge amount of the service has to use the same signalling and infrastructure as national rail.
 

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