JFK - 60 years on

The Mafia definitely wanted him dead because of the way his brother was going after mob links to the unions after Joe Kennedy had promised them the earth. Ruby's mob links are a huge red flag.

At the same time, the CIA definitely wanted him dead and made huge efforts to cover it up - Dulles heading the Warren Commission and tampering with their investigation, the fact that the CIA officer who had recruited Oswald as an asset was liaison to the second investigation in the 70s and suppressed all evidence of CIA involvement.

Not to mention the Cuban exiles who blamed him for the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

All three of those groups' interests align in Miami with the Cuban emigre organisations down there. And the Mafia had major interests in Cuba before Castro and links to CIA and Cuban groups down there. I can't see past all three of those groups being involved.
They all stood to benefit from JFK’s removal and they all may have been involved to greater or lesser degree but only those at the very top of the clandestine government agencies could have organised not only the act itself but the aftermath. How would the mafia or Cuban exiles influence the complete botching of the autopsy etc?
 


The only reason, those documents haven't been released. Is because they would put the CIA in the shit.

America, land of the free, not at all the most corrupt nation in the world!

Halleluhah, praise the lord
 

This is long but worth a watch for anyone that's not seen it. Purely focussed on the book depository and pretty conclusive by the end imo. Somebody was shooting from the 6th floor and it was more than likely Oswald.
 
I was in the Theatre Royal on Bedford Street watching "Heavens Above" with a really nice girl who had just started work as a librarian at Sunderland Central Library.

About 20 minutes in, the curtain came down, the lights went on and the cinema manager bounced onto the stage to make "a very grave announcement".

It being just over a year since the Cuban Missile Crisis, everyone was terrified it was a nuclear warning.

When he announced that President Kennedy had been assassinated, there was almost relief. But still terribe shock.

Everybody just drifted out in stunned silence.
 
They all stood to benefit from JFK’s removal and they all may have been involved to greater or lesser degree but only those at the very top of the clandestine government agencies could have organised not only the act itself but the aftermath. How would the mafia or Cuban exiles influence the complete botching of the autopsy etc?

I'd definitely go along with the CIA being at the top of the organisational pyramid, but the others must have had some involvement. I don't think Ruby acted on his own initiative and he was mobbed up. The Mafia were hip deep in Cuban affairs, and so were the CIA operatives tied to the case. Including Oswald himself
The only reason, those documents haven't been released. Is because they would put the CIA in the shit.

America, land of the free, not at all the most corrupt nation in the world!

Halleluhah, praise the lord

By every available measure the USA is clearly not the most corrupt country in the world. It could go and get a lot more corrupt and still be less corrupt than the country where you currently reside.

At the same time the involvement of major US government institutions in the murder of their president and subsequent cover up stinks to high heaven.

Two things can be true at once
 
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I'd definitely go along with the CIA being at the top of the organisational pyramid, but the others must have had some involvement. I don't think Ruby acted on his own initiative and he was mobbed up. The Mafia were hip deep in Cuban affairs, and so were the CIA operatives tied to the case. Including Oswald himself
The mafia had an axe to grind due to:
Having ‘assisted’ with ballots in Illinois and expecting quid pro quo ‘consideration’
Resulting dissatisfaction with RFK going after mafia backed unions
Thinking Cuba was going to be their open playground, thwarted by Castro
Dis satisfied with US reaction to Castro, Bay of Pigs etc
RFK going after Giancana, deporting Santo Trafficante etc

All that said Stone more or less nails for me it in the scene in ‘JFK’ when Costner takes down Michael Rooker who just can’t countenance that the federal government could be so corrupt.

Maria did not have the resources to organise the parade, remove the plastic bubble on the car, select and train snipers, set up LHO as a patsy, interfere with the autopsy and aftermath, infiltrate the Warren Commission etc etc. They may have been persuaded to provide Ruby to whack LHO but they were at the margins of any involvement in the actual hit on JFK.
 

This is long but worth a watch for anyone that's not seen it. Purely focussed on the book depository and pretty conclusive by the end imo. Somebody was shooting from the 6th floor and it was more than likely Oswald.

Most theories don't dispute that bit. By the same token it's simply not possible for him to have been the lone gunman and for there not to have been a wider conspiracy
The mafia had an axe to grind due to:
Having ‘assisted’ with ballots in Illinois and expecting quid pro quo ‘consideration’
Resulting dissatisfaction with RFK going after mafia backed unions
Thinking Cuba was going to be their open playground, thwarted by Castro
Dis satisfied with US reaction to Castro, Bay of Pigs etc
RFK going after Giancana, deporting Santo Trafficante etc

All that said Stone more or less nails for me it in the scene in ‘JFK’ when Costner takes down Michael Rooker who just can’t countenance that the federal government could be so corrupt.

Maria did not have the resources to organise the parade, remove the plastic bubble on the car, select and train snipers, set up LHO as a patsy, interfere with the autopsy and aftermath, infiltrate the Warren Commission etc etc. They may have been persuaded to provide Ruby to whack LHO but they were at the margins of any involvement in the actual hit on JFK.

That's the whole point though. They didn't organise the whole thing but they *were* involved. Because the CIA were in cahoots with parts of the Mafia. And they were all over the Cuban stuff. I reckon it was more than just on the margins even if they weren't the brains.

The most striking thing about the scene with Rooker in JFK is Stone devotes exactly one line of dialogue in a 3 hour film to whether the mafia were involved, saying they've never killed anyone with anything other than a 38?
 
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Most theories don't dispute that bit. By the same token it's simply not possible for him to have been the lone gunman and for there not to have been a wider conspiracy


That's the whole point though. They didn't organise the whole thing but they *were* involved. Because the CIA were in cahoots with parts of the Mafia. And they were all over the Cuban stuff. I reckon it was more than just on the margins even if they weren't the brains.

The most striking thing about the scene with Rooker in JFK is Stone devotes exactly one line of dialogue in a 3 hour film to whether the mafia were involved, saying they've never killed anyone with anything other than a 38?
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but I recall a long dialogue / soliloquy where Costner is saying “Could the mafia do [X]? Could the mafia do [Y]? and laying out a load of reasons why it had to be a higher internal power.

Plus the whole conversation with X (Donald Sutherland) in real life Fletcher Prouty, he may be reflecting Stone’s non-mafia bias but he lays out the whole scenario of the higher power in smoke filled rooms (that trope was massively exploited later by the X Files) and there’s no mention of the mafia there. And having read countless books about the whole business (admittedly a long time ago) I see with Stone on this.
 
The only reason, those documents haven't been released. Is because they would put the CIA in the shit.

America, land of the free, not at all the most corrupt nation in the world!

Halleluhah, praise the lord

Absolutely this.
You have to include the FBI as well as the CIA (are they one and the same?) as J Edgar Hoover ensured the agencies weren't implicated throughout.

I watched this lecture recently regarding Dorothy Kilgallen, she was the only reporter to have interviewed Jack Ruby (twice) and was at his trial each day. She was a friend of JFK and was actively investigating his assassination when she died unexpectedly as well.

 
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but I recall a long dialogue / soliloquy where Costner is saying “Could the mafia do [X]? Could the mafia do [Y]? and laying out a load of reasons why it had to be a higher internal power.

Plus the whole conversation with X (Donald Sutherland) in real life Fletcher Prouty, he may be reflecting Stone’s non-mafia bias but he lays out the whole scenario of the higher power in smoke filled rooms (that trope was massively exploited later by the X Files) and there’s no mention of the mafia there. And having read countless books about the whole business (admittedly a long time ago) I see with Stone on this.

Fair enough, but the Mafia were hand in glove with the CIA making assassination attempts on Castro which was all being run out of Florida. My take on it would be the CIA using the Mafia people they were working with down there as part of the plot. We'll see what Reiner and O'Brien turn up
 
So who do you think was to blame? Castro? The Russians? The CIA? Trump?
Hoover and LBJ both wanted him gone and at the very least knew about it. Hoover knew everything, and nothing happened in Texas without LBJ knowing about it.

The Kennedys had enough dirt on both to end their careers, and planned to. Hoover was gay, an open secret at the time but one kept out of the press. JFK had photographic evidence, and was probably blackmailing Hoover with it. LBJ had rigged the Texas election to win (google Box 13), JFK had the evidence and was embarrassing VP LBJ by sending him on diplomatic trips to countries he'd never heard of.

Both despised the Kennedys.
 
This podcast has been excellent, well worth a listen to anyone interested.

They've named the shooters who killed JFK in Dallas on the day (hidden as a spoiler for those who still want to listen and hear for themselves

The four shooters, according to the podcast, were:

  • Cuban exile and hitman named Herminio Diaz Garcia, who was killed in 1966 in Cuba while trying to assassinate Castro.
  • Jean Souetre, a French assassin, whom CIA files say was in Dallas on Nov. 22 and then "quickly and quietly" deported after the assassination.
  • Charles Nicoletti, also known as "Chuckie the Typewriter," who was a hitman for Chicago Mobster Sam Giancana. Nicoletti was murdered in 1977, right before he was scheduled to testify before a House select committee on assassinations.
  • Jack Canon, who as a lieutenant colonel had worked under Gen. Willoughby, chief of intelligence for Gen. Douglas McArthur during World War II and the Korean War.
It shows how many different groups had their fingerprints on the conspiracy. Garcia was a Cuban exile who represented the interests of those Cuban groups who wanted rid of Castro and never forgave Kennedy for Bay of Pigs. Jean Souetre was a killer for hire who had been used by the CIA in the past. He'd also been part of the far right OAS who wanted rid of De Gaulle over Algeria and was implicated in a notorious assassination attempt on him. Charles Nicoletti was a mafia hit man who worked for Sam Giancana. Jack Canon had worked for the CIA including in Japan after the war which ties in to the CIA sending Lee Harvey Oswald there under cover of being a Marine in the 50s.

They also say who organised and authorised the assassination

It doesn't look like it was officially authorised by the then leadership of the CIA at the time.

Former CIA chief Allen Dulles was behind the plot. He had been sacked by Kennedy over Bay of Pigs and as well as wanting payback disagreed with Kennedy's move towards finding a peaceful settlement with the Soviets. He had also been involved in the OAS plot against De Gaulle which ties him to the French assassin.

General Charles Willoughby was from military intelligence which was moved under the CIA. He had reported to Dulles in the past and come up with various plans and operations of exactly this kind of assassination. He was tactical lead for the assassination and brought in the Mafia and Cuban assassins for the hit.

Bill Harvey was another senior CIA officer who had reported to Dulles and was behind various agency operations to unseat Castro. He was the strategist who devised the whole plot.

They were all up to their necks in various plans and actual plots to assassinate leaders and topple governments around the world and wanted to be able to blame Kennedy's death on Castro and communist operatives to scupper a thawing of the Cold War and get support for another invasion of Cuba. They figured as well I assume that pulling this off would get them back into the top jobs in US intelligence one way or another. They used their network to get hold of Oswald and use him as a decoy. James Angleton the chief of counterintelligence in the CIA was key to organising that. It's also clear that the Mafia and Cuban resources were used with the knowledge and approval of their leaders including senior people in the Mafia who had co operated with these men from the CIA in the past
 
My daring, hot take is he was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.

We've seen over the last ten years how many foilhats and Russian simps are in the USA. If he was alive today he'd have a channel on X.com to articulate his insecurities. Look at Jackson Hinkle and tell me he wouldn't have shot somebody if he was around 60 years ago.
 
My daring, hot take is he was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.

We've seen over the last ten years how many foilhats and Russian simps are in the USA. If he was alive today he'd have a channel on X.com to articulate his insecurities. Look at Jackson Hinkle and tell me he wouldn't have shot somebody if he was around 60 years ago.

The evidence in this case is incontrovertible that he didn't. Not just evidence that he couldn't have done it, but of him obviously being a CIA asset, hired killers provably being in Dallas on the day and the cover up. If Oswald did it there would have been no need for CIA operatives to suppress evidence to the Warren Commission and the 1970s committee on assassinations, which it's documented they did.

This particular conspiracy is proven by a mountain of verifiable documentary evidence. It's not fair to judge it by the standard of all the subsequent tinfoil hatter conspiracies that followed and have nothing behind them
 
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