Jeremy Bamber White House Farm...Innocent or Evil scumbag?

[Mercia Blackcat]

The blood that was supposed to be a match for Sheila, was simply her blood group. A group that she shared with her uncle. The uncle and his children (JB's cousins) were present when the silencer was found. The jury were never told that the uncle's blood group was the same as Sheila's. The same uncle is the person who forced the original SIO off the case and had him replaced with an SIO more to his liking (Ainsley). After Bamber lost his first appeal, Ainsley retired on his police pension. Several years later, he was photographed at the uncle's family run caravan site, where he held a position as security consultant.

Just to be sure, are you saying her uncle's blood is an entire match for that of Sheila which was:

A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
However, the DNA recovered from inside the silencer returned 17 similar markers with Sheila Caffell and it is accepted that up to 13 could be coincidental rendering it highly likely that the DNA found deep within the sound moderator did come from Sheila Caffell.

It should be noted that by using 15 or 16 markers the chances of two people having the same DNA is estimated to be around 1 in a trillion. The chances then that the DNA in the silencer just happened to derive from someone other than Sheila Caffell are so infinitesimally small as to be nigh impossible.
Therefore the chances of it being her uncle's DNA is 1 in a trillion.
Even if they are entirely of the same blood group.

 

[Roker Skate]

Just to be sure, are you saying her uncle's blood is an entire match for that of Sheila which was:

A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
However, the DNA recovered from inside the silencer returned 17 similar markers with Sheila Caffell and it is accepted that up to 13 could be coincidental rendering it highly likely that the DNA found deep within the sound moderator did come from Sheila Caffell.

It should be noted that by using 15 or 16 markers the chances of two people having the same DNA is estimated to be around 1 in a trillion. The chances then that the DNA in the silencer just happened to derive from someone other than Sheila Caffell are so infinitesimally small as to be nigh impossible.
Therefore the chances of it being her uncle's DNA is 1 in a trillion.
Even if they are entirely of the same blood group.

A silencer wasn't used on Sheila Caffell.

Gun experts raise doubts over Jeremy Bamber murder verdict

New review of ballistics evidence 'shakes safety of convictions' in 1986 Essex killings

www.theguardian.com

Therefore, how could any DNA of Sheila's be found, by 'back-spatter'. It would have to get there by some other method?

BTW, her uncle refused a DNA test (not that he was related to her by blood though).

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

A silencer wasn't used on Sheila Caffell.

Gun experts raise doubts over Jeremy Bamber murder verdict

New review of ballistics evidence 'shakes safety of convictions' in 1986 Essex killings

www.theguardian.com

Therefore, how could any DNA of Sheila's be found, by 'back-spatter'. It would have to get there by some other method?

BTW, her uncle refused a DNA test (not that he was related to her by blood though).

So your saying that although the blood in the silencer was that for Sheila it was also the same group as her unrelated uncle, implying it could be his blood. Yet the DNA found was that of Sheila but the chances of it's being her uncle's were 1 in a trillion. So therefore you are happy to conclude that the blood is not Sheila's. The silencer would need to be heated to 200 degrees Celsius to produce the marks on Nevill and that temperature was not reached during the tests the article refers to during normal firing of the rifle. So if the marks on Nevill were produced by the rifle (with or without the silencer) the heat source would need to be external. How close would the rifle need to be to Sheila's neck to produce burn marks if the silencer could not reach sufficient temperature anyway during normal usage. The gun could have been a small distance from the neck rather than in contact. Hardly surprising then that this evidence was not accepted as reliable by the Court of Appeal.

There was no back splatter found in the rifle. Round and round in circles.

 

[Roker Skate]

So your saying that although the blood in the silencer was that for Sheila it was also the same group as her unrelated uncle, implying it could be his blood. Yet the DNA found was that of Sheila but the chances of it's being her uncle's were 1 in a trillion. So therefore you are happy to conclude that the blood is not Sheila's. The silencer would need to be heated to 200 degrees Celsius to produce the marks on Nevill and that temperature was not reached during the tests the article refers to during normal firing of the rifle. So if the marks on Nevill were produced by the rifle (with or without the silencer) the heat source would need to be external. How close would the rifle need to be to Sheila's neck to produce burn marks if the silencer could not reach sufficient temperature anyway during normal usage. The gun could have been a small distance from the neck rather than in contact. Hardly surprising then that this evidence was not accepted as reliable by the Court of Appeal.

There was no back splatter found in the rifle. Round and round in circles.

Malcolm Fletcher claimed that the blood in silencer which apparently matches Sheila's blood group (and is now known to match Robert Boutflour's) was introduced in to the silence by back spatter. He never actually carried out any tests with a .22 silenced rifle to conclude this. He just got the concept out of a book. You keep referring to the burns on Nevill. Put them aside. I am referring to burns from contact shots on Sheila. A silencer wasn't used. Therefore, anything that got in to the silencer relating to Sheila, found its way there via another method.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

Malcolm Fletcher claimed that the blood in silencer which apparently matches Sheila's blood group (and is now known to match Robert Boutflour's) was introduced in to the silence by back spatter. He never actually carried out any tests with a .22 silenced rifle to conclude this. He just got the concept out of a book. You keep referring to the burns on Nevill. Put them aside. I am referring to burns from contact shots on Sheila. A silencer wasn't used. Therefore, anything that got in to the silencer relating to Sheila, found its way there via another method.

So there were burns from contact shots on Sheila from the barrel but no back splatter even though the barrel would have not gotten hot enough?

There was blood from Robert Boutflour in the moderator but none of his DNA unless by a 1 in a trillion chance his DNA was the same as Sheila?

Hmmmmm.....not convinced.

 

[Roker Skate]

So there were burns from contact shots on Sheila from the barrel but no back splatter even though the barrel would have not gotten hot enough?

There was blood from Robert Boutflour in the moderator but none of his DNA unless by a 1 in a trillion chance his DNA was the same as Sheila?

Hmmmmm.....not convinced.

The jury at trial were told that the blood belonged exclusively to Sheila. Whereas, they should have been informed that it was (allegedly) Sheila's blood group, which was also shared by Robert Boutflour. They were misled, deliberately.
I think you are making an assumption that back spatter is guaranteed to occur. I'm not sure that it is. It was used as a device, by MF, to explain how Sheila's blood got in to silencer but as you have already been shown, peer reviewed reports from ballistics and burns experts refute the use of a silencer in Sheila's shots. The exhibit in question has been in police custody for many years. The police should be asked to explain how any blood or for that matter DNA found its way in to a sound moderator that wasn't used in the shots to Sheila. But in this country, we don't have the guts to do that. The authorities do not like being impugned.

If you believe in the back spatter theory, which was untested by MF and came from a book, why are Nicholas and Daniel's blood not in the silencer?

 

[ir35]

Experts have said bambers act of grief at the funerals was fake. His facial expressions of sadness were wrong along with his body language. Also his voice on the call to the police wasn't the voice of a scared man.
His show of sadness at the funeral didn't last long. He started selling anything of value he could. He had his mother's dog put down and tried to sell topless pictures of his sister to the press. That's not the action of a grieving son, uncle and brother.
The statement from his girlfriend was more than damning. He phoned her on the night of the murders and said it had to be tonight. It's tonight or never. He'd already told her of a plan to sedate his parents and set the farmhouse on fire. He was so arrogant he obviously thought she wouldn't reveal what he'd said.
How anybody thinks he didn't do it is beyond me.

Enough to bang him up for me.

 

[Roker Skate]

Experts have said bambers act of grief at the funerals was fake. His facial expressions of sadness were wrong along with his body language. Also his voice on the call to the police wasn't the voice of a scared man.
His show of sadness at the funeral didn't last long. He started selling anything of value he could. He had his mother's dog put down and tried to sell topless pictures of his sister to the press. That's not the action of a grieving son, uncle and brother.
The statement from his girlfriend was more than damning. He phoned her on the night of the murders and said it had to be tonight. It's tonight or never. He'd already told her of a plan to sedate his parents and set the farmhouse on fire. He was so arrogant he obviously thought she wouldn't reveal what he'd said.
How anybody thinks he didn't do it is beyond me.

She signed a pre-trial deal with NOTW, for 25K, if Bamber was convicted. A lot of money in 1986. Furthermore, she was provided with immunity from prosecution..

Jeremy Bamber: prosecutor's correspondence with police – full documents

Letters show the then assistant director of public prosecutions suggested to police that Julie Mugford, a witness in the Jeremy Bamber trial, should not be prosecuted over previous alleged offences

www.theguardian.com

 

[John Steed]

She signed a pre-trial deal with NOTW, for 25K, if Bamber was convicted. A lot of money in 1986. Furthermore, she was provided with immunity from prosecution..

Jeremy Bamber: prosecutor's correspondence with police – full documents

Letters show the then assistant director of public prosecutions suggested to police that Julie Mugford, a witness in the Jeremy Bamber trial, should not be prosecuted over previous alleged offences

www.theguardian.com

None of that means she lied under oath.
What I can't understand is if bambers case for release is so strong why is he still inside. Why hasn't he been released. I'd say it's because the people who make that decision don't think he's innocent. They have access to everything that has ever been revealed about this case and still think he's guilty. I wonder why that is?

 

[Hbk69]

Experts have said bambers act of grief at the funerals was fake. His facial expressions of sadness were wrong along with his body language. Also his voice on the call to the police wasn't the voice of a scared man.
His show of sadness at the funeral didn't last long. He started selling anything of value he could. He had his mother's dog put down and tried to sell topless pictures of his sister to the press. That's not the action of a grieving son, uncle and brother.
The statement from his girlfriend was more than damning. He phoned her on the night of the murders and said it had to be tonight. It's tonight or never. He'd already told her of a plan to sedate his parents and set the farmhouse on fire. He was so arrogant he obviously thought she wouldn't reveal what he'd said.
How anybody thinks he didn't do it is beyond me.

How did he get topless pictures of his sister?

 

[John Steed]

How did he get topless pictures of his sister?

She was a model so he likely got access to her album. Or he's s perv as well as a multiple murderer.

 

[Roker Skate]

None of that means she lied under oath.
What I can't understand is if bambers case for release is so strong why is he still inside. Why hasn't he been released. I'd say it's because the people who make that decision don't think he's innocent. They have access to everything that has ever been revealed about this case and still think he's guilty. I wonder why that is?

It's strongly suspected she lied under oath. She was coached, with multiple meetings between herself and DS Stan Jones. She was portrayed as having come forward. In fact she was arrested. She was 'cleaned' as a witness regarding the cheque fraud. Her statements changed over the course of her coaching and they included info that came from other prosecution witnesses (ie wider relatives). If somebody is in a load of shit and they get immunity from prosecution and an offer of 25K if the person on trial is found guilty, that's not exactly sound ethical practice is it?

Not everything has been seen because the police have destroyed items. Some evidence has been shut away until 2054. To this day, the police have been involved in curating the negatives and getting rid of any that could seriously undermine the convictions. In any event, the system is set up in such a way, that the original trial is regarded as sound, even if it wasn't. It's extremely difficult to overturn a conviction.

 

[John Steed]

It's strongly suspected she lied under oath. She was coached, with multiple meetings between herself and DS Stan Jones. She was portrayed as having come forward. In fact she was arrested. She was 'cleaned' as a witness regarding the cheque fraud. Her statements changed over the course of her coaching and they included info that came from other prosecution witnesses (ie wider relatives). If somebody is in a load of shit and they get immunity from prosecution and an offer of 25K if the person on trial is found guilty, that's not exactly sound ethical practice is it?

Not everything has been seen because the police have destroyed items. Some evidence has been shut away until 2054. To this day, the police have been involved in curating the negatives and getting rid of any that could seriously undermine the convictions. In any event, the system is set up in such a way, that the original trial is regarded as sound, even if it wasn't. It's extremely difficult to overturn a conviction.

I followed the Frederick Bulsara trial and almost from the start I thought he was innocent. As the trial progressed I thought there is no way they can find him guilty. They did find him guilty though it was later overturned. That was a miscarriage of justice but the Bamber case wasn't. I'm happy he's inside and pleased that circumstantial evidence dug up decades after the event hasn't freed him.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

The jury at trial were told that the blood belonged exclusively to Sheila. Whereas, they should have been informed that it was (allegedly) Sheila's blood group, which was also shared by Robert Boutflour. They were misled, deliberately.
I think you are making an assumption that back spatter is guaranteed to occur. I'm not sure that it is. It was used as a device, by MF, to explain how Sheila's blood got in to silencer but as you have already been shown, peer reviewed reports from ballistics and burns experts refute the use of a silencer in Sheila's shots. The exhibit in question has been in police custody for many years. The police should be asked to explain how any blood or for that matter DNA found its way in to a sound moderator that wasn't used in the shots to Sheila. But in this country, we don't have the guts to do that. The authorities do not like being impugned.

If you believe in the back spatter theory, which was untested by MF and came from a book, why are Nicholas and Daniel's blood not in the silencer?

You just wont admit it that the very tests you refer to regarding the heat of the moderator or rifle barrel end just didn't get hot enough to make burn marks. The only way they could get burn marks was to heat the moderator with a blow torch and even that was inconclusive and they concluded further tests were required. Yet you refer to these very same tests as conclusive. I've seen photographs of the wounds to Sheila's neck and didn't notice any burn marks anyway which is hardly surprising as the tests you refer too proved the moderator or barrel end could not reach sufficient a temperature after firing 25 rounds.

I expect there was not back platter from the twins because the rifle may not have been in such close proximity as with Sheila. Therefore sufficient pressure was not generated by the rifle
I honestly think Bamber supporters are caught in a time warp where they keep repeating the same allegations over and over again as if it was new evidence. It's like Groundhog Day.
Are the Campaign Team seriously claiming that these are the grounds for appeal:

Fresh hope for Jeremy Bamber 2021 – Some questions Essex Police plainly need to answer…
What happened to a suicide note allegedly left by Sheila Caffell that was initially referenced by police and then disappeared?

Why did Sheila Caffell not have rigor mortis when officers discovered her body?

Why was blood still gaping from Miss Caffell’s body when it was found?

Why are there different accounts about how many bodies were discovered on the ground floor of the farmhouse?

How could Jeremy Bamber be the killer if police officers repeatedly detected movement inside White House Farmhouse whilst he was stood with them outside?

Why was the silencer supposedly used in the shootings not discovered immediately when police entered the residence?

Why did scratch marks supposedly made in the kitchen of the house by that silencer not appear in the first photographs taken at the crime scene? How were they actually made in order that they appeared in later imagery?

How could Jeremy Bamber be the killer if he made a phone call from his Goldhanger home 3.5 miles away moments after his father had called police from White House Farmhouse to say that his daughter had “gone berserk” with a gun?

Here we go. Groundhog Day....take 3500.
...

Fresh Hope For Jeremy Bamber 2021 – Bamber Seeks New Appeal

As Jeremy Bamber gets fresh hope and seeks another appeal over the White House Farm familial murders, questions emerge that Essex Police truly ought to answer.

www.thesteepletimes.com

 

[Roker Skate]

You just wont admit it that the very tests you refer to regarding the heat of the moderator or rifle barrel end just didn't get hot enough to make burn marks. The only way they could get burn marks was to heat the moderator with a blow torch and even that was inconclusive and they concluded further tests were required. Yet you refer to these very same tests as conclusive. I've seen photographs of the wounds to Sheila's neck and didn't notice any burn marks anyway which is hardly surprising as the tests you refer too proved the moderator or barrel end could not reach sufficient a temperature after firing 25 rounds.

I expect there was not back platter from the twins because the rifle may not have been in such close proximity as with Sheila. Therefore sufficient pressure was not generated by the rifle
I honestly think Bamber supporters are caught in a time warp where they keep repeating the same allegations over and over again as if it was new evidence. It's like Groundhog Day.
Are the Campaign Team seriously claiming that these are the grounds for appeal:

Fresh hope for Jeremy Bamber 2021 – Some questions Essex Police plainly need to answer…
What happened to a suicide note allegedly left by Sheila Caffell that was initially referenced by police and then disappeared?

Why did Sheila Caffell not have rigor mortis when officers discovered her body?

Why was blood still gaping from Miss Caffell’s body when it was found?

Why are there different accounts about how many bodies were discovered on the ground floor of the farmhouse?

How could Jeremy Bamber be the killer if police officers repeatedly detected movement inside White House Farmhouse whilst he was stood with them outside?

Why was the silencer supposedly used in the shootings not discovered immediately when police entered the residence?

Why did scratch marks supposedly made in the kitchen of the house by that silencer not appear in the first photographs taken at the crime scene? How were they actually made in order that they appeared in later imagery?

How could Jeremy Bamber be the killer if he made a phone call from his Goldhanger home 3.5 miles away moments after his father had called police from White House Farmhouse to say that his daughter had “gone berserk” with a gun?

Here we go. Groundhog Day....take 3500.
...

Fresh Hope For Jeremy Bamber 2021 – Bamber Seeks New Appeal

As Jeremy Bamber gets fresh hope and seeks another appeal over the White House Farm familial murders, questions emerge that Essex Police truly ought to answer.

www.thesteepletimes.com

I think you are confused. The 'burn' marks to Sheila from contact shots are entirely different to the burn marks on Nevill's back. The only commonality they share is that both sets of burns were believed or suspected to have been caused by the barrel of the rifle without a silencer. So in the case of Sheila, the marks are known to definitely correspond to 'burns' you would see without a silencer. In the case of Nevill, it was suspected that the end of the barrel was superficially heated by an external source, eg the Aga and then his back was prodded. The inference being that there was never a silencer on the gun during the incident. If you take away the burns to Nevill and any speculation or experimentation as to how they were caused, this does not detract from the nature of Sheila Caffell's own wounds, which have nothing to do with the rifle being superficially heated by an external source.

I followed the Frederick Bulsara trial and almost from the start I thought he was innocent. As the trial progressed I thought there is no way they can find him guilty. They did find him guilty though it was later overturned. That was a miscarriage of justice but the Bamber case wasn't. I'm happy he's inside and pleased that circumstantial evidence dug up decades after the event hasn't freed him.

I would hardly describe the lack of a sound moderator being used to inflict Sheila's wounds as circumstantial. Personally, I also find it difficult to ignore that raid team members witnessed Sheila's crime scene with no rifle on top of her body and the Bible several feet away. This means that police later staged the crime scene.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

.....In the case of Nevill, it was suspected that the end of the barrel was superficially heated by an external source, eg the Aga and then his back was prodded.....

Now that is some degree of rational thinking and method. For someone suffering from schizophrenia it is phenomenal. Or had Sheila suddenly overcome the organic malfunction in her brain. Was she also having a nervous breakdown, neurosis, which is psychological rather than organic. So Sheila the schizophrenic (psychosis) displays symptoms of bipolar (psychosis), multiple personality disorder (psychosis) and neurosis but not only does she have traits of every psychotic and psychological conditions in the book but also displays psychopathy which is not associated with any mental illness.

 

[Market Where?]

I think he did it but some other members of the family were involved.

 

[Roker Skate]

Now that is some degree of rational thinking and method. For someone suffering from schizophrenia it is phenomenal. Or had Sheila suddenly overcome the organic malfunction in her brain. Was she also having a nervous breakdown, neurosis, which is psychological rather than organic. So Sheila the schizophrenic (psychosis) displays symptoms of bipolar (psychosis), multiple personality disorder (psychosis) and neurosis but not only does she have traits of every psychotic and psychological conditions in the book but also displays psychopathy which is not associated with any mental illness.

I think what happened was a culmination of different factors and circumstances leading up to the event. It may be she only meant to kill herself and the children but the adults intervened and died as a result. Or it may be that she intended on killing her mam anyway (as they had a difficult relationship). Or it may be that everyone in the house was destined to die at her hand from the outset. I have no idea what was planned and what was delusional or hallucinatory. With regards to the burns on Nevill's back I have no idea as to why or how they came about. There have been several different suggestions but nothing proven outright. The CT couldn't pay for more tests to confirm the theory about the rifle barrel being superficially heated by some external source.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

I think what happened was a culmination of different factors and circumstances leading up to the event. It may be she only meant to kill herself and the children but the adults intervened and died as a result. Or it may be that she intended on killing her mam anyway (as they had a difficult relationship). Or it may be that everyone in the house was destined to die at her hand from the outset. I have no idea what was planned and what was delusional or hallucinatory. With regards to the burns on Nevill's back I have no idea as to why or how they came about. There have been several different suggestions but nothing proven outright. The CT couldn't pay for more tests to confirm the theory about the rifle barrel being superficially heated by some external source.

So the culmination of different factors and circumstances resulted in a variety of organic mental illnesses, plus a neurotic breakdown and finally when she came to her senses a ritualistic suicide that included cleansing while all through that she displayed actions belonging to a psychopath with all the precise method required to load a rifle like a marine and make controlled fatal shots to the head of all victims. Little random or chaotic about it.

It has been claimed that her medication had been halved yet she is described by Bamber himself as lethargic and vacant. She had not taken the medication to control side effects such as shaking and she is described to be of poor coordination. As the medication was delivered via syringe there is no possibility that she did not remain under its influence. It there any evidence to suggest that halving of her medication would result in it suddenly becoming ineffective over a short period resulting in a psychotic episode from which she would be unable to escape until more medication was delivered into her system. Even if she did experience a psychotic episode of schizophrenia there is too much method involved in the killing which she would be incapable of so the conclusion must be that the murders are more indicative of a psychopath and that is impossible to attribute to Sheila.

Quite frankly it all belongs in a fantasy crime novel rather than real life.

 

[Roker Skate]

So the culmination of different factors and circumstances resulted in a variety of organic mental illnesses, plus a neurotic breakdown and finally when she came to her senses a ritualistic suicide that included cleansing while all through that she displayed actions belonging to a psychopath with all the precise method required to load a rifle like a marine and make controlled fatal shots to the head of all victims. Little random or chaotic about it.

It has been claimed that her medication had been halved yet she is described by Bamber himself as lethargic and vacant. She had not taken the medication to control side effects such as shaking and she is described to be of poor coordination. As the medication was delivered via syringe there is no possibility that she did not remain under its influence. It there any evidence to suggest that halving of her medication would result in it suddenly becoming ineffective over a short period resulting in a psychotic episode from which she would be unable to escape until more medication was delivered into her system. Even if she did experience a psychotic episode of schizophrenia there is too much method involved in the killing which she would be incapable of so the conclusion must be that the murders are more indicative of a psychopath and that is impossible to attribute to Sheila.

Quite frankly it all belongs in a fantasy crime novel rather than real life.

I think you are emotively projecting your own personal narrative on the events. Why would Bamber describe her in terms similar to vacant, if he wanted to frame her? He could have instead portrayed her as being angry, upset, in a rage etc. Instead, he simply told the truth. The rifle is easy to load, with there being some minor difficulty with last bullet. In reality, she wouldn't need to fully load the rifle. It's not a necessity. The victims with headshots were more than likely incapacitated / stationary when they received them. You are simply pedalling a false narrative that a sharp shooter was involved. If the shots are close range and in an enclosed space then no wonder they hit their target. I suspect Sheila was also familiar with concept of aiming a rifle, as we all are. It's an instinctive action upon picking up a gun to close one eye and stare down the barrel. Even if not every single head shot wasn't fired at completely stationary targets, one accurate head shot to a more mobile target (let's say for example down the stairs at Nevill) doesn't make her an Olympic sharp shooter. Re the ritual washing I haven't argued for that. I do not believe Sheila was clean as is made out. Though I don't see why or how she would be prevented from washing if she chose to do so.