Jeremy Bamber White House Farm...Innocent or Evil scumbag?



There was also this in 2016 Jeremy Bamber’s supporters claim police ignored sister’s suicide note

Not sure if it's a different note to the one mentioned in Star today.
Yes, I noticed the Express first reported on a suicide note in 2016 that was allegedly placed inside the Bible found by her body. It said the Campaign Team were trying to raised £1500 to pay for it to be examined by a hand writing expert. So what came of that?

The Sun article states the suicide letter was found on a table in her bedroom within a few days of the murder but was considered illegible.

So two letters or did she photocopy them.

Writing a suicide note does not mean you have to commit suicide.
Indeed. Many people write suicide letters but never go on to act. It can sometimes maybe help them gets their thought out objectively. The whole letter would need to be examined to try and place it in context and may have been from an earlier date altogether. Just releasing snippets out of context means nothing.
 

Nukehasslefan

Central Defender
Speculation eh?

Imagine shooting your sons in their bed as they slept. Then shooting your mother and father after battering him in the kitchen with the butt of a rifle so hard that part of it broke off.
Aye, it's all we can go on.

The rifle wasn't exactly a robust rifle. It was more like an air rifle in terms of set up, except it fired bullets.
And easy rifle for a girl to handle and use. Hardly any recoil.
Do you agree?

I have to speculate as to why Bamber would set up a massacre by thinking he could use this weapon, knowing it wasn't exactly powerful enough to immediately incapacitate or kill without getting perfect close range head shots.
It's possible, maybe.... but.... if he's supposedly set this up as clever as he's supposed to have, does it seem feasible to use this as a premeditated massacre weapon?
I'm not convinced.

Then finishing off your mother before having a bath or shower and putting on a clean nightie and inserting a fresh tampax but not bothering to put your knickers on.
Who said she had a bath or a shower and then finished off the mother? Am I not privy to some evidence? Can you expand on this fresh tampax stuff and what not?

Then returning to your mother's bedroom and sitting down to commit suicide all in some ritualistic method in the midst of a frenzied psychotic episode.
Who said it was ritualistic?
Frenzied it may have been but exactly how and why is the key, if it was her.

I have a theory of how it could've worked but it's simply only that.

m it's massive speculation and to be fair it's all any of us have to go on, or a reliance on the words of all kinds of witnesses that do not seem to correlate in many aspects.

Shooting yourself first with the rifle lateral to your neck and then again raising your head to finish off under the chin, sliding down to a more horizontal position exposing your genitals in a final flash to the world. Hoping the police have the common decency to pull your nightie down when they find your body.
Can you expand on this?

Speculation, where would we be without it.
That's all it is to us.
The only people that really know what went on are those involved directly and they are all dead, plus the assassin or assassins are possibly not or are not.

So.... if you could just expand on what I asked, to tell me how you come to your answers as to how Sheila put on a fresh tampax and washed, etc and had no knickers on with this tampax.

You see we're all trying to picture a scene and glean something from it.
As it stands i'm in no definitive camp. At best I'll speculate and also play devils advocate in order to try and make sense of it all.....if ever.

One thing's for sure. Too much of this does not add up and that means JB has some reasonable doubt about his conviction.
If he's guilty then he's where he is, for the rest of his life. If he isn't guilty, then no amount of later evidence in his favour is going to get him back the time he's spent in jail and the life he could've had on the outside.

Look at all the miscarriages of justice...and especially of that time.
It seems contrived stuff brought about his demise and that should require as much in depth analysis regardless to ascertain the sentencing laws that supposedly require an effort of 'beyond reasonable doubt.'
 

Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
Writing a suicide note does not mean you have to commit suicide.
Letters or notes expressing suicidal thoughts / actions, should not be withheld from the defence team of a person on trial for murder of the alleged author. Experts for both prosecution and defence should have been allowed to give testimony regarding this evidence.

When you convict a man by withholding or destroying evidence that points elsewhere, you end up with a situation where 34 years later, people are still arguing the case.
 

Therokerroar

Central Defender
As I've mentioned before if I was on the jury I could not be 100% bamber commited the crime so I would have had to find him not guilty as 2 jurors did ....I think Julie Mugford was unreliable as they come

However what I still can't get my head around is why Bamber supposedly tried selling nude pictures of his sister to The Sun . Did Bamber ever admit to doing this ?...if true that is sick beyond belief
 

Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
As I've mentioned before if I was on the jury I could not be 100% bamber commited the crime so I would have had to find him not guilty as 2 jurors did ....I think Julie Mugford was unreliable as they come

However what I still can't get my head around is why Bamber supposedly tried selling nude pictures of his sister to The Sun . Did Bamber ever admit to doing this ?...if true that is sick beyond belief
It's discussed above between my self and MBC. Jury's out for me.
 

Linus

Striker
Letters or notes expressing suicidal thoughts / actions, should not be withheld from the defence team of a person on trial for murder of the alleged author. Experts for both prosecution and defence should have been allowed to give testimony regarding this evidence.

When you convict a man by withholding or destroying evidence that points elsewhere, you end up with a situation where 34 years later, people are still arguing the case.
34 years of significantly underwhelming 'new' 'evidence' and Jeremy Bamber remains locked up.

Destroying evidence? Maybe Jeremy shouldn't have been in such a rush to burn so much stuff, including his father, mother and sister.
 

Sidewinder2

Winger
As I've mentioned before if I was on the jury I could not be 100% bamber commited the crime so I would have had to find him not guilty as 2 jurors did ....I think Julie Mugford was unreliable as they come

However what I still can't get my head around is why Bamber supposedly tried selling nude pictures of his sister to The Sun . Did Bamber ever admit to doing this ?...if true that is sick beyond belief
Mugford selling her story for £25k straight away didn't quite sit right either.

I think he did it and he continues to believe he is cleverer than the authorities, hence refusing to admit it.

Why would his dad phone him and not the police (bearing in mind it's been proven he was shot in the mouth twice when he supposedly called)?

Why would Bamber look up the local police station number and not dial 999?

Why when finding the local police station number and clearly seeing in bold "in an emergency call 999" underneath did he ignore that and continue to phone the local station?

Those questions for me suggest more than any "suicide note" his sister wrote.
Letters or notes expressing suicidal thoughts / actions, should not be withheld from the defence team of a person on trial for murder of the alleged author. Experts for both prosecution and defence should have been allowed to give testimony regarding this evidence.

When you convict a man by withholding or destroying evidence that points elsewhere, you end up with a situation where 34 years later, people are still arguing the case.
Only to conspiracy theorists, especially when way more evidence actually points towards him.
 
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Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
34 years of significantly underwhelming 'new' 'evidence' and Jeremy Bamber remains locked up.

Destroying evidence? Maybe Jeremy shouldn't have been in such a rush to burn so much stuff, including his father, mother and sister.
This type of post not really worth a response.
 
Aye, it's all we can go on.

The rifle wasn't exactly a robust rifle. It was more like an air rifle in terms of set up, except it fired bullets.
And easy rifle for a girl to handle and use. Hardly any recoil.
Do you agree?

I have to speculate as to why Bamber would set up a massacre by thinking he could use this weapon, knowing it wasn't exactly powerful enough to immediately incapacitate or kill without getting perfect close range head shots.
It's possible, maybe.... but.... if he's supposedly set this up as clever as he's supposed to have, does it seem feasible to use this as a premeditated massacre weapon?
I'm not convinced.
If you wanted to frame Sheila then it was the perfect weapon of those available. Also all 25 shots fired hit their target. There was not a single shot fired that missed. Not bad for someone having a frenzied psychotic episode. In fact both June and Neville were hit several times and were incapacitated when the fatal head shots were fired. If that was impossible for Jeremy who was experienced in using that rifle then it was even more impossible for Sheila who no one had ever seen fire a weapon in her life.

Who said she had a bath or a shower and then finished off the mother? Am I not privy to some evidence? Can you expand on this fresh tampax stuff and what not?

Who said it was ritualistic?
Frenzied it may have been but exactly how and why is the key, if it was her.
Her body was clean. There had been a violent fight in the kitchen between Neville and the killer in which an overhead glass light shade had been shattered. Crockery had also been knocked to the floor and broken. There was no gun residue or lead from handling bullets on her hands. Her feet and slippers contained no glass or other debris from the kitchen. There was no blood from any of the other victims on her body or nightie. There was an opened and empty tampax box in her bedroom. There were no scratches, grazes or bruises on her. There was absolutely nothing to indicate that she had handled a gun or bullets or had been in any violent struggle.

Over the years Bamber supporters have claimed she must have taken a shower and changed without putting any knickers on in a ritualistic suicide. Yet she was found dead in the mothers bedroom rather than her beloved boys and an alleged note from her was found in her bedroom. Nothing but pure speculation. It is clear that Sheila never left the bedroom or landing area on that night.

I have a theory of how it could've worked but it's simply only that.

m it's massive speculation and to be fair it's all any of us have to go on, or a reliance on the words of all kinds of witnesses that do not seem to correlate in many aspects.
We all have theories but it should be based on evidence. There were 21 shots fired upstairs and 21 empty cases found. Therefore Neville must have been shot four times upstairs before reaching the kitchen when four more shots were fired into his head that were fatal. Somehow the telephone usually in the kitchen was buried under newspapers and the phone from the main bedroom had been transferred to the kitchen where it was left off the hook in an attempt to confirm that Neville had called Jeremy. Neville had been shot twice in the mouth and lower chin that blew away his bottom lip, shattered his jaw and larynx. Yet he is alleged by Jeremy to have spoken to him telling him that Sheila had gone crazy with a gun. He managed to do this whilst no doubt pouring blood from his mouth with even leaving a trace of blood on the phone.

I think most reasonable people would conclude that this was impossible and if Jeremy was lying and trying to frame Sheila, he must have been the killer.

Can you expand on this?

That's all it is to us.
The only people that really know what went on are those involved directly and they are all dead, plus the assassin or assassins are possibly not or are not.

So.... if you could just expand on what I asked, to tell me how you come to your answers as to how Sheila put on a fresh tampax and washed, etc and had no knickers on with this tampax.
I am not saying she did wash and change but that is what defenders of Jeremy claim as part of a ritualistic suicide. Regarding the knickers and tampax I would refer you to the pathology report.

The pathologist concluded that the first shot to he neck had been when she was sitting down and slightly resting on her right side with the rifle in a lateral position. This would have caused her shock and knocked her head back the second shot was then fired under her chin. Expert analysis provided to the Court of Appeal stated this would have knocked her back against the bedroom cabinet and she would have slid down slightly but that when considering the physics of weight, forces and friction she must have then been pulled by her legs into a more horizontal position on her back. Friction being different between her body and nightie, and between the nightie and the floor would have resulted in her nightie then being pulled down to cover her genital area and upper legs. I am not sure how the Bible ended up slightly resting on her arm so it must have been placed in that position. However, the Appeal Court Judges in 2002 decided this analysis could have been possible at the time of the trial and so decided they would not consider it but try to determine if the jury had reached a correct verdict.

A lot of this has already been covered in the thread and I have my own theories, for example the entry woulds in Daniel were a single shot to the head and then a group of four fired in close proximity. I believe this indicated the twins were shot again in an attempt to make it appear as frenzied but that is speculation. I'm not really keen on going round in circles but if some genuine evidence emerges that was significant to the verdict and was not revealed to the jury I would be interested.
 
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In my post above I've typed:

He managed to do this whilst no doubt pouring blood from his mouth with even leaving a trace of blood on the phone.

This should of course read:

He managed to do this whilst no doubt pouring blood from his mouth without even leaving a trace of blood on the phone.
 

Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
In my post above I've typed:

He managed to do this whilst no doubt pouring blood from his mouth with even leaving a trace of blood on the phone.

This should of course read:

He managed to do this whilst no doubt pouring blood from his mouth without even leaving a trace of blood on the phone.
I'm not sure why Nevill has to make a call after receiving facial shots. This is a circumstance that you are insisting upon, as opposed to what might actually have happened.
 
I'm not sure why Nevill has to make a call after receiving facial shots. This is a circumstance that you are insisting upon, as opposed to what might actually have happened.
It is what the prosecution presented at trial and the defence offered no credible challenge.

So Neville is aroused by Sheila going crazy with a gun. Presumably he had heard her shoot the twins because the evidence is that they were shot in their sleep and were certainly not aroused by their mother going crazy with a gun.

We can assume the phone from the bedroom had already been taken downstairs to the kitchen as that is where it was found off the hook. Otherwise Neville could have made the call from the bedroom anyway. So Neville leaves his wife June asleep in bed or if she is also awake tells her not to bother getting out of bed as its only Sheila going crazy with a gun and he's off to to the kitchen to call Jeremy who will help sort her out so nothing to worry about. We know June was first shot while she was lying in bed.

Neville goes to the kitchen and calls Jeremy but the call is cut off by Sheila and so both Sheila and Neville then race upstairs to the main bedroom where Neville is shot four times. They then go back to the kitchen where a ferocious fight takes place and Sheila hits Neville that hard with the butt of the rifle that part of it breaks off. Sheila then finishes him with four head shots.

Quite frankly, that really is beyond belief.
 

zinedine

Striker
Over the years I've read a lot about these murders but I haven't read anything that makes me think Sheila was the killer. Her name was destroyed by the press based purely on Bamber's account of events which was initially believed

Details like Sheila knowing nothing about guns but the killer was a marksman. Not one bullet missed their target.

Nevill Bamber, a strong man of 6ft 4in, was found with two black eyes, a broken nose and eight gunshot wounds. The 5ft 7in Sheila was lethargic, on anti-psychotic medication, and had unmarked clean hands and feet.

She would have had to load a .22 Anshutz automatic rifle at least twice but there was no significant residue on her clothing

If Bamber is innocent then a third party did the killings. The police have already ruled out that possibility. The right man is in prison for those murders let's hope he stays there.
 

Jon Dough

Midfield
The rifle wasn't exactly a robust rifle. It was more like an air rifle in terms of set up, except it fired bullets.
And easy rifle for a girl to handle and use. Hardly any recoil.
Do you agree?
.22 rimfire,negligible recoil,as you said more akin to an air rifle,very easy for a mature woman to handle,i have seen an 8 year old boy shooting one at targets.
 

Nukehasslefan

Central Defender
If you wanted to frame Sheila then it was the perfect weapon of those available. Also all 25 shots fired hit their target. There was not a single shot fired that missed. Not bad for someone having a frenzied psychotic episode. In fact both June and Neville were hit several times and were incapacitated when the fatal head shots were fired. If that was impossible for Jeremy who was experienced in using that rifle then it was even more impossible for Sheila who no one had ever seen fire a weapon in her life.
Wasn't Neville Bamber a stickler for ensuring the guns were all locked away after some incident years ago?
And also, if he wanted to frame sheila, maybe it was the perfect weapon due to its handling but also it made it a perfect weapon to cause massive issues due to its inability to produce a kill shot unless it was close range.

And also It relied on Jeremy being certain that NB would not remove the gun from where he'd left it, plus the ammo, if NB was so diligent about safety.
I'm just playing devils advocate and still have no definitive on the case, so simply just read what I'm saying as nit picking and being a forum juror without having a lot of the evidence that the real jurors had at their disposal, if you like.

Her body was clean. There had been a violent fight in the kitchen between Neville and the killer in which an overhead glass light shade had been shattered.
The violent fight might have been Neville fighting for his life against trying to right himself or to try and get help, whilst weakening. A fight for life, not necessarily a fight with someone, physically.

Crockery had also been knocked to the floor and broken. There was no gun residue or lead from handling bullets on her hands. Her feet and slippers contained no glass or other debris from the kitchen.
Weren't the bullets waxed?

There was no blood from any of the other victims on her body or nightie.
There didn't really need to be.

There was an opened and empty tampax box in her bedroom.
Not sure what relevance this has. Can you elaborate on it?
There were no scratches, grazes or bruises on her. There was absolutely nothing to indicate that she had handled a gun or bullets or had been in any violent struggle.
She may not have been in a violent struggle.

Over the years Bamber supporters have claimed she must have taken a shower and changed without putting any knickers on in a ritualistic suicide. Yet she was found dead in the mothers bedroom rather than her beloved boys and an alleged note from her was found in her bedroom. Nothing but pure speculation. It is clear that Sheila never left the bedroom or landing area on that night.
Like I said earlier, there didn't need to be much to be unclean about her, given what I mentioned as a potential.
We all have theories but it should be based on evidence.
I agree but there seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence and potential contrived evidence and suspicious circumstances, which literally beg questions.
There were 21 shots fired upstairs and 21 empty cases found. Therefore Neville must have been shot four times upstairs before reaching the kitchen when four more shots were fired into his head that were fatal.
There's lots of possibilities as to what happened in that scenario, don't you think?
Somehow the telephone usually in the kitchen was buried under newspapers and the phone from the main bedroom had been transferred to the kitchen where it was left off the hook in an attempt to confirm that Neville had called Jeremy.
Was it buried under newspapers just as par for the course or deliberately buried?
You see, the Bambers, June and Neville must've known the upstairs phone was in use downstairs. It's not like they're going to miss something like that from their bedside.

Neville had been shot twice in the mouth and lower chin that blew away his bottom lip, shattered his jaw and larynx. Yet he is alleged by Jeremy to have spoken to him telling him that Sheila had gone crazy with a gun.
He managed to do this whilst no doubt pouring blood from his mouth with even leaving a trace of blood on the phone.
Maybe he did this upon Sheila going beserk and grabbing the gun when he was downstairs having his drink and smoke like he always, apparently did...and phoned Jeremy to let him know, maybe thinking Sheila wouldn't use the gun, only threaten and not wanting to involve the police because he liked to keep family matter private.

Possible?

I think most reasonable people would conclude that this was impossible and if Jeremy was lying and trying to frame Sheila, he must have been the killer.
Of course, if he was lying. And this is what we're debating, to be fair.


I am not saying she did wash and change but that is what defenders of Jeremy claim as part of a ritualistic suicide. Regarding the knickers and tampax I would refer you to the pathology report.
I don't know whether she did or not but it doesn't really mean a lot unless the mindset stays on her walking through glass and sugar and blood......but did she do any of that?


The pathologist concluded that the first shot to he neck had been when she was sitting down and slightly resting on her right side with the rifle in a lateral position. This would have caused her shock and knocked her head back the second shot was then fired under her chin. Expert analysis provided to the Court of Appeal stated this would have knocked her back against the bedroom cabinet and she would have slid down slightly but that when considering the physics of weight, forces and friction she must have then been pulled by her legs into a more horizontal position on her back. Friction being different between her body and nightie, and between the nightie and the floor would have resulted in her nightie then being pulled down to cover her genital area and upper legs.
I'd like to know how the rifle ended up propped against the window and also against her. This doesn't make any rational sense.
It says the crime scene has been badly tampered with and if that's the case, what's to say Sheila's body wasn't moved from one place to another?
Don't you think the gun being in two places is odd?
And also, looking at the gun against the window, it appears to have a silencer/moderator on it.
What do you think?
What does anyone else think?

I am not sure how the Bible ended up slightly resting on her arm so it must have been placed in that position. However, the Appeal Court Judges in 2002 decided this analysis could have been possible at the time of the trial and so decided they would not consider it but try to determine if the jury had reached a correct verdict.
I recall that June had started to get into Sheila's head and Sheila started to take notice of the bible. Maybe she used that bible as her last ditch effort to ask for forgiveness from god for what she'd done, then shot herself but didn't do a proper job so immediately righted herself a bit and did it properly.
Possible?
A lot of this has already been covered in the thread and I have my own theories, for example the entry woulds in Daniel were a single shot to the head and then a group of four fired in close proximity. I believe this indicated the twins were shot again in an attempt to make it appear as frenzied but that is speculation. I'm not really keen on going round in circles but if some genuine evidence emerges that was significant to the verdict and was not revealed to the jury I would be interested.
Frenzied is one thing but frenzied doesn't have to mean haphazard.
Amid all that evidence the jury still only convicted by 10 to 2 and although a majority is a majority, it means two people did not think it was sound.
That to me casts doubt.
 
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Wasn't Neville Bamber a stickler for ensuring the guns were all locked away after some incident years ago? And also, if he wanted to frame sheila, maybe it was the perfect weapon due to its handling but also it made it a perfect weapon to cause massive issues due to its inability to produce a kill shot unless it was close range.And also It relied on Jeremy being certain that NB would not remove the gun from where he'd left it, plus the ammo, if NB was so diligent about safety.I'm just playing devils advocate and still have no definitive on the case, so simply just read what I'm saying as nit picking and being a forum juror without having a lot of the evidence that the real jurors had at their disposal, if you like.
We only have Jeremy's word that he left the rifle and weapon out for Sheila to use as a weapon of opportunity. He left the farm when Neville was still working outside and as Neville was experienced in the use of guns I would be surprised if he did not put the weapon back in the cupboard when he finished work. However, this works more in the favour of Sheila's defence.

The violent fight might have been Neville fighting for his life against trying to right himself or to try and get help, whilst weakening. A fight for life, not necessarily a fight with someone, physically.
Yet Neville had several blows that were consistent with being struck with a cylindrical object like the barrel of a rifle. The overhead glass light shade had been shattered. He had swollen eyes and a broken nose and a part of the butt of the rifle had broken off and was found next to his body. This is all consistent with a violent fight. He also had three burn marks on his back which could not have occurred by accident.

Weren't the bullets waxed?
Nevertheless Sheila had nothing on her hands which were clean. In comparison forensic test significantly higher levels of lead were transferred to the hands of assistants who handled the same bullets.

She may not have been in a violent struggle.
She hadn't been. It was the killer who had.
What is needed is significant evidence that was witheld from the jury to challenge the verdict.
The Appeal Court did not consider significant evidence since the trial that would support the verdict as their role was to consider the original verdict of guilty.
 
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Nukehasslefan

Central Defender
We only have Jeremy's word that he left the rifle and weapon out for Sheila to use as a weapon of opportunity. He left the farm when Neville was still working outside and as Neville was experienced in the use of guns I would be surprised if he did not put the weapon back in the cupboard when he finished work. However, this works more in the favour of Sheila's defence.
Maybe.

Yet Neville had several blows that were consistent with being struck with a cylindrical object like the barrel of a rifle. The overhead glass light shade had been shattered. He had swollen eyes and a broken nose and a part of the butt of the rifle had broken off and was found next to his body. This is all consistent with a violent fight. He also had three burn marks on his back which could not have occurred by accident.
I seem to recall something being said about Nevill being in a strange position and with one foot in and one foot out of his pyjamas which were down his ankles. Can you shed any light on this?

Nevertheless Sheila had nothing on her hands which were clean. In comparison forensic test significantly higher levels of lead were transferred to the hands of assistants who handled the same bullets.
Is it possible she wiped them enough. Maybe?

She hadn't been. It was the killer who had.
What is needed is significant evidence that was witheld from the jury to challenge the verdict.
The Appeal Court did not consider significant evidence since the trial that would support the verdict as their role was to consider the original verdict of guilty.
But if the killer was JB then surely he would've had marks on him during the struggle, if indeed it was a person to person struggle. I mean, NB was strong and 6'4". Likely as strong if not stronger than JB.
Which brings me back to whether there wasn't a person to person struggle, just NB struggling after being walloped and shot and scrambling about knocking stuff over and what not.
 

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