Hill and Coton


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Trust me were not going to be splashing millions about in January.
Which is absolutely fine - if we spend what we can well. The issue is that we haven’t really done so under Donald. This summer is slightly different in that i suppose we did okay with the money - but completely misidentified what was required. I have no confidence that the current incumbents will do better in January. Our issues have been obvious since at least last October. We could do with fresh eyes - even if there’s no real money increase.

As a side note, if Donald really does need the input of four billionaires to get Safc out of league one, he’s not making a good case to be the right man to take us forward in all honesty.
 
The club was at rock bottom last summer almost in administration, if you think the club hasn’t gone forwards since then it’s pointless talking to you
Didn't you also defend those who got us into that position? Criticism is absolutely fine if it is valid and backed up
No I didn’t, I defended short when people were saying he wasn’t spending enough, said he appointed the wrong people to look after the club
 
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The club was at rock bottom last summer almost in administration, if you think the club hasn’t gone forwards since then it’s pointless talking to you

Where is this forward you speak of?

We are just descending at a slower rate is all...we are in a desperate position right now, failure for promotion and parachute payments running out...forward my ass!
 
I think they have assembled a very good league one squad yes, one that should piss this league, two forwards in that are well proven at this level, the so called 'King' brought in, proven midfielders. I would only question the quality of our CB's brought in, although Willis is looking good now, and seems to have brought the best from Ozturk.

Piss the league? Take apart McGeady who was already here and who stands out as quality who we've brought in?

Arguably Grigg should but hasn't really done it a level above - question marks over the manager and how he's used. Leadbitter has quality but hasn't the legs so needs support around him - have we got that? McGeough I don't think is great but it's arguable he should be better and McLaughlin is definitely the required quality. Willis might be though he's not actually played centre half at Coventry at this level consistently as he's often played at fullback and McNutly is barely proven at this level - proven below, failed a level above. Ozturk has come in and shown form, quite possibly given another chance because two or three of the other centre halves haven't been up to it and Ozturk is someone very well known to the manager before SAFC.

Funny as you're quick to point out maybe the manager can be questioned and not the recruitment team when higher profile players don't do well, but in the case of Maguire who was clearly recommended by Donald after his stint at Oxford you're quick to praise the recruitment team even though they brought in a player who looked shot and not give the manager credit for Maguires form.

We've paid fees for Grigg (£3m), Wyke (£600k) and Baldwin (£200k), some undisclosed in Power, O'Nein, Dobson and Maquire, the list of free's we have brought in are Loovens, Ozturk, Flanagan, Leadbitter, James, McGeouch, McLaughlin, Lynch, Willis, Conor McLaughlin and Burge. Admittedly those fee's paid are well above what goes around in this division, Grigg takes that up to stupid levels, but I think for the likes of Grigg the owners have had had their pants taken down!

How can that assembled squad not be classed as good league one business, if you were told they would manage to get most from that list through the door before we got them you'd be happy, people are only pissed because we've come up short and that fault doesn't lie with the recruitment, but the manager imo.

How can it not be classed as good league one business? Because it's not been done on a league one budget, it's also not supported the way the manager wants to play and he's had to abandon a high pressure attacking game plan two seasons running. Donald also talked about how much some players on frees wanted this summer and mentioned something around 600k IIrc, he stated we didn't pay that for the player but he did go onto mentioned that the 'frees' aren't free. So although we have signed Willis and McLaughlin this summer I would hazard a guess that Willis, probably not McLaughlin cost a reasonable signing on fee as well. Good business of course, but not really a league one budget.

I suspect cutting the scouting network to save costs may also have hindered us, not sure any of the player brought in were from outside of the UK, we've limited ourselves there also.

Without a doubt, it's the one area I can really give them so leeway in. It's almost certainly restricted us last season but given it was increased around Christmas time according to Donald then unless the extra 80k PA or whatever went exclusively on some bloke sitting watching videos of Coventry's 2016/17/18 sides from January onwards it's not really showing it's worth yet.
Where is this forward you speak of?

We are just descending at a slower rate is all...we are in a desperate position right now, failure for promotion and parachute payments running out...forward my ass!

If the stories about Cattermole/Oviedo etc contracts being paid off in full over a longer period are true and to be honest I don't believe they will be, though some fans supposedly with good knowledge are insisting they are, it will be a noose around our neck without the parachute payements if we don't go up, unless the investors throw pots of cash in.
 
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The club was at rock bottom last summer almost in administration, if you think the club hasn’t gone forwards since then it’s pointless talking to you

No I didn’t, I defended short when people were saying he wasn’t spending enough, said he appointed the wrong people to look after the club
I think you did like, using the same line trotted out on this thread about no-one knowing what they do, so they can't criticise them.
 
Yes I would , but I don’t whinge for nowt, it’s blatantly obvious it’s going in the right direction, just over a year ago we were a shambles almost going into admin

Yet i seem to remember you used to defend Ellis Short and his boardroom quite a lot, you know the people who caused the shambles in the first place, and the reason we are in this division.

so are you now saying that you were wrong ?
 
Piss the league? Take apart McGeady who was already here and who stands out as quality who we've brought in?

Arguably Grigg should but hasn't really done it a level above - question marks over the manager and how he's used. Leadbitter has quality but hasn't the legs so needs support around him - have we got that? McGeough I don't think is great but it's arguable he should be better and McLaughlin is definitely the required quality. Willis might be though he's not actually played centre half at Coventry at this level consistently as he's often played at fullback and McNutly is barely proven at this level - proven below, failed a level above. Ozturk has come in and shown form, quite possibly given another chance because two or three of the other centre halves haven't been up to it and Ozturk is someone very well known to the manager before SAFC.

Funny as you're quick to point out maybe the manager can be questioned and not the recruitment team when higher profile players don't do well, but in the case of Maguire who was clearly recommended by Donald after his stint at Oxford you're quick to praise the recruitment team even though they brought in a player who looked shot and not give the manager credit for Maguires form.



How can it not be classed as good league one business? Because it's not been done on a league one budget, it's also not supported the way the manager wants to play and he's had to abandon a high pressure attacking game plan two seasons running. Donald also talked about how much some players on frees wanted this summer and mentioned something around 600k IIrc, he stated we didn't pay that for the player but he did go onto mentioned that the 'frees' aren't free. So although we have signed Willis and McLaughlin this summer I would hazard a guess that Willis, probably not McLaughlin cost a reasonable signing on fee as well. Good business of course, but not really a league one budget.



Without a doubt, it's the one area I can really give them so leeway in. It's almost certainly restricted us last season but given it was increased around Christmas time according to Donald then unless the extra 80k PA or whatever went exclusively on some bloke sitting watching videos of Coventry's 2016/17/18 sides from January onwards it's not really showing it's worth yet.


If the stories about Cattermole/Oviedo etc contracts being paid off in full over a longer period are true and to be honest I don't believe they will be, though some fans supposedly with good knowledge are insisting they are, it will be a noose around our neck without the parachute payements if we don't go up, unless the investors throw pots of cash in.
I think you're getting away from my original point here, how can anyone question the recruitment of players, when nobody knows what the objectives and limitations have been...from the outside we have managed to rid ourselves of higher paid players, and have built a strong enough league one squad which should really have done an awful lot better. Yes we've spent money, but ignore that, we were there to be raped by other clubs given our financial power and stature.

We keep saying that we lack pace, how do we know that was an attribute that Ross actually wanted in a player? And if it was, how do we know that we didn't actually target players and they knocked us back. We don't have a clue. You cant force targets to come. SD talked of having 2/3 defending options a couple of weeks ago, we end up with a LB from Leeds that no-one has head of...i suspect that player was not one of the original 2/3 quoted, so why did these deals not materialise? Is there restrictions that we are not aware of that the club are working too?

However, Ross's tactics can easily be questioned however given that he appears not to be playing to the strengths of his players (which he apparently has the final say on) and tries to mould the players into something that certainly isn't natural to them...Hume being asked to play wing-back at the start of this season for example.

You can also question Ross's game management, where we've never killed teams off and its come back to bite us on the arse, where we've started too slowly and had to go behind for us to have a real go!

IMO you look at the players we have at our disposal and on paper you would look at that and given the history of these players we should do very well in this league, I'm sorry, but that ends with Ross.

As for Maquire, i will put some praise on Ross, as I do think he's handled him pretty well, he managed to get some fire back in his belly and on his day he can win us games easily.
 
Yet i seem to remember you used to defend Ellis Short and his boardroom quite a lot, you know the people who caused the shambles in the first place, and the reason we are in this division.

so are you now saying that you were wrong ?
Can’t keep on repeating myself over n over again , I defended short when people had a go at him not spending when he spent over 200mill, u have said many times that he messed trusting the wrong people to spend it, and that he should of sold the club a few years before he did
I think you did like, using the same line trotted out on this thread about no-one knowing what they do, so they can't criticise them.
I give up with you, can’t explain it anymore
Where is this forward you speak of?

We are just descending at a slower rate is all...we are in a desperate position right now, failure for promotion and parachute payments running out...forward my ass!
Desperate position have you been living under a rock, 3pts off the top and about to have new investment! Do you even support safc
 
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Can’t keep on repeating myself over n over again , I defended short when people had a go at him not spending when he spent over 200mill, u have said many times that he messed trusting the wrong people to spend it, and that he should of sold the club a few years before he did

I give up with you, can’t explain it anymore

Desperate position have you been living under a rock, 3pts off the top and about to have new investment! Do you even support safc

That new investment will be totally separate of how we are run at present. And at present, we would be in the last place for a playoff spot...worse spot than last season.
 
That new investment will be totally separate of how we are run at present. And at present, we would be in the last place for a playoff spot...worse spot than last season.
Are you taking the piss, at present since when did the season end in September. At present means nothing it’s where you are at the end of the season
 
I think you're getting away from my original point here, how can anyone question the recruitment of players, when nobody knows what the objectives and limitations have been...from the outside we have managed to rid ourselves of higher paid players, and have built a strong enough league one squad which should really have done an awful lot better. Yes we've spent money, but ignore that, we were there to be raped by other clubs given our financial power and stature.

How can you criticise the manager then by the same token? Last season Donald said the play offs or above were the target and that was achieved, yet you're criticising the manager for not getting more out of many of the players. I'm not sure in many cases there's more to be had out of them or am I missing something with Loovens, Baldwin, Flanagan, C McLaughlin, McGeouch, Gooch, Wyke etc.

By the same token if you don't know what the remit was for the recruitment team how on earth can you praise them or said they've done a solid job??

How can you ever comment on anything you aren't directly involved in?

We keep saying that we lack pace, how do we know that was an attribute that Ross actually wanted in a player? And if it was, how do we know that we didn't actually target players and they knocked us back. We don't have a clue. You cant force targets to come. SD talked of having 2/3 defending options a couple of weeks ago, we end up with a LB from Leeds that no-one has head of...i suspect that player was not one of the original 2/3 quoted, so why did these deals not materialise? Is there restrictions that we are not aware of that the club are working too?

Because Ross said he wanted pace in preseason and his St Mirren side had some pace and some energy to press higher up the field.

If the manager isn't getting what he wants, within reason, then how are the recruitment team doing such a good job?


However, Ross's tactics can easily be questioned however given that he appears not to be playing to the strengths of his players (which he apparently has the final say on) and tries to mould the players into something that certainly isn't natural to them...Hume being asked to play wing-back at the start of this season for example.

If he's asked for certain types and isn't getting them, then how can the manager be at his best and bring what he's done before here? If there's key ingredients missing from his squad, how can he operate in a way in which is modern, forward thinking or in an attacking manner. Two seasons running he's tried to do something more positive and twice he's had to change it largely due to pace and energy in key areas in the side.

Whether he's got final say or not, we aren't sure, though it has been said by Donald - but I remember Gus Poyet saying he had the same here and saying it can be like "do you want player A or nothing" so you accept player A as opposed to nothing. Ross has also intimated in the media he hasn't been given what he wanted, Maddison being a case in point where he wasn't supported. I appreciate there was a cost involved but it just highlighted how he was basically overruled by Hill.

As for Hume at lwb - before the season started almost anyone SAFC would have expected him to be suited to the role, given last season he showed he's not a good defender and has pace and likes to get forward. Until you see him in the role though it's difficult to judge.

You can also question Ross's game management, where we've never killed teams off and its come back to bite us on the arse, where we've started too slowly and had to go behind for us to have a real go!

You're saying that though and you're completely ignoring why we sometimes get twitchy/cautious when we go ahead and why changes were made after the start last season. It's not just about game management not wanting to do it, it's something we've often had to do as when we continue to go forward we've not finished chances and we've left ourselves too open to easy counters and been picked off. Sometimes it's happened as a result of keep trying to finish sides off and sometimes as a result of being cautious.


IMO you look at the players we have at our disposal and on paper you would look at that and given the history of these players we should do very well in this league, I'm sorry, but that ends with Ross.[./quote]

Like who? Grigg I'll give you. Most have been supporting players in teams with better players around them, people like Power who have been instantly off loaded by Wigan after promotion - doesn't exactly make you think he was standout at this level given they didn't bother with him in the division above.

The squad is woefully unbalanced, has little energy and has little or no cover at fullback or wide areas and barring misfiring Grigg and McGeady you're struggling for a regular goalscorer proven at this level as McNutly's record has been achieved a division below barring one season of 9 goals at Sheff United and Wyke only scored 7 from 19 one season and 16 from 43 the next, previously scoring 2 from 25 at this level for Hartlepool as a kid, hardly prolific.

As for Maquire, i will put some praise on Ross, as I do think he's handled him pretty well, he managed to get some fire back in his belly and on his day he can win us games easily.

Talented certainly, but he's not consistent enough to do it over a season IMO. Valuable to us as we don't have too many players with that ability, however he wouldn't have spent the last few years at Rotherham, Oxford and Bury dropping into league two if it was something he could produce regulary.
 
Can’t keep on repeating myself over n over again , I defended short when people had a go at him not spending when he spent over 200mill, u have said many times that he messed trusting the wrong people to spend it, and that he should of sold the club a few years before he did

Yet had he sold it at the time before relegation came along, somewhere around 2015, maybe we wouldn't be in this division today which is of course possible, but i am glad we have got in black and white, that you did defend short at least, if nothing else.

And yes i did say the club was mismanaged however i also said at the time it was his club their for his responsibility, and so in that case he took the blame for those who were given jobs in his era. from boardroom down to management of the team.
 
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Are you taking the piss, at present since when did the season end in September. At present means nothing it’s where you are at the end of the season

That’s right, we could be 10th at the end of the season or first...we can only go by where we are, and AT PRESENT we are worse off than last season. How is that tough to understand?
 
How can you criticise the manager then by the same token? Last season Donald said the play offs or above were the target and that was achieved, yet you're criticising the manager for not getting more out of many of the players. I'm not sure in many cases there's more to be had out of them or am I missing something with Loovens, Baldwin, Flanagan, C McLaughlin, McGeouch, Gooch, Wyke etc.

By the same token if you don't know what the remit was for the recruitment team how on earth can you praise them or said they've done a solid job??

How can you ever comment on anything you aren't directly involved in?



Because Ross said he wanted pace in preseason and his St Mirren side had some pace and some energy to press higher up the field.

If the manager isn't getting what he wants, within reason, then how are the recruitment team doing such a good job?




If he's asked for certain types and isn't getting them, then how can the manager be at his best and bring what he's done before here? If there's key ingredients missing from his squad, how can he operate in a way in which is modern, forward thinking or in an attacking manner. Two seasons running he's tried to do something more positive and twice he's had to change it largely due to pace and energy in key areas in the side.

Whether he's got final say or not, we aren't sure, though it has been said by Donald - but I remember Gus Poyet saying he had the same here and saying it can be like "do you want player A or nothing" so you accept player A as opposed to nothing. Ross has also intimated in the media he hasn't been given what he wanted, Maddison being a case in point where he wasn't supported. I appreciate there was a cost involved but it just highlighted how he was basically overruled by Hill.

As for Hume at lwb - before the season started almost anyone SAFC would have expected him to be suited to the role, given last season he showed he's not a good defender and has pace and likes to get forward. Until you see him in the role though it's difficult to judge.



You're saying that though and you're completely ignoring why we sometimes get twitchy/cautious when we go ahead and why changes were made after the start last season. It's not just about game management not wanting to do it, it's something we've often had to do as when we continue to go forward we've not finished chances and we've left ourselves too open to easy counters and been picked off. Sometimes it's happened as a result of keep trying to finish sides off and sometimes as a result of being cautious.
Okay, you hate Coton and love Ross, you win!
 
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