Gym Routines

That's same as me ! I really like my rest days (but like I said I generally use these for mobility/stretching)
I think you could and should add where I said then marra.
If you're like me , I sometimes miss days, that's why splits and stuff never worked as well for me, as I may do say your workout 1, then rest then the next day something comes up and I can't get to the gym , or I may go out boozing and miss the day after too as I'm hungover, then thats 5 days without shoulders or back or chest.
But then you may be more consistent than me!

Even on a 8 sec rep though, which most of us do it far faster , you are doing weights for less than 10 mins a day, not sure what your rest is Inbetween, I usually change mine intermittently from anywhere from 30 secs to 2.5 mins max, so your workouts atm will be far less than 30 mins.
You'll easily get shoulder in 1 and chest in 2.
I think you're talking and goggling at the lasses too much if you say your workout lasts for 45 to 60 mins!
Ok I can try when the gym reopens.

To be honest when I do 5x5 I could manage with a 90s rest for the first 3 sets but then I’d struggle.
 


Ok I can try when the gym reopens.

To be honest when I do 5x5 I could manage with a 90s rest for the first 3 sets but then I’d struggle.
Obviously just need to lower weights if you do shorter rests!
Ita good to play about with the rest in between sets every now and again, and tempo of the exercise.
I mainly do 120 or 150 sec rest, but every now and again do anywhere from 30/90. Just i lower the weights quite a bit. Atm my gym only allows you in for an hour (when its back again) on pre booked slots, so I've been mainly doing 60 second rests since July or whenever they re opened
 
Obviously just need to lower weights if you do shorter rests!
Ita good to play about with the rest in between sets every now and again, and tempo of the exercise.
I mainly do 120 or 150 sec rest, but every now and again do anywhere from 30/90. Just i lower the weights quite a bit. Atm my gym only allows you in for an hour (when its back again) on pre booked slots, so I've been mainly doing 60 second rests since July or whenever they re opened
Oh you didn’t mention lowering the weights!!!!!!

No chance of that m8 I would rather wait for 3 minutes and do my 40kg deadlifts.
 
Think you've missed a '0' off the end their marra
:D I wish!

During a run today I had a ponder about what you’d posted I.e. that by doing 5x5 and resting for 3mins that I wasn’t spending much time actually lifting weights.

Wouldn’t it be true that the overall volume would be higher but the intensity is lower?

E.g. if I bench 70kg 5x5 with 3 mins rest it is 1750kg.

I could probably bench 60-65kg 5x5 with 90 seconds rest = 1500 to 1625kg total.

Frequency is still 3 sessions per week, Wednesday/Friday/Sunday.

I am assuming that for a weedy amateur such as I that it doesn’t really matter and I might as well mix up the intensity and volume.

I sometimes do 3x10 paused bench press with a lighter weight and less rest and it’s a killer.
 
:D I wish!

During a run today I had a ponder about what you’d posted I.e. that by doing 5x5 and resting for 3mins that I wasn’t spending much time actually lifting weights.

Wouldn’t it be true that the overall volume would be higher but the intensity is lower?

E.g. if I bench 70kg 5x5 with 3 mins rest it is 1750kg.

I could probably bench 60-65kg 5x5 with 90 seconds rest = 1500 to 1625kg total.

Frequency is still 3 sessions per week, Wednesday/Friday/Sunday.

I am assuming that for a weedy amateur such as I that it doesn’t really matter and I might as well mix up the intensity and volume.

I sometimes do 3x10 paused bench press with a lighter weight and less rest and it’s a killer.
I always look at volume when I change my routine, but then yes, when you have a routine, there are many variables which effect how much you can lift, not just the weight.
I usually plan everything on 2 min rests, but then occasionally have 1 or 3 min rests (even 30 secs once in a blue moon) or I do sets slower (a bench press of 10 reps can be made as hard doing 5 reps doing it really slow), so this changes the intensity like you said, so volume will not be as much.

I think (iirc) the meta studies are that volume plays a roll in muscle hypertrophy , but by this they mean volume in sets, not volume as you did , sets x reps x weight. So doing 5x5 no matter what the weight or tempo or rest period would create a similar inc in muscle growth as long as the intensity was the same (for me thats doing an exercise so when I stop I'm 1 rep from failure)
I'll have a look out for the study, it was on the stronger by science podcast which i find pretty good for all the meta analysis and explaining it to lamens like me.
Hopefully someone better educated will be able to confirm or refute what I've said!
@Stevie Freestein II


Here it suggests, like I said, that volume is no of sets, rather than sets x reps x weight.
Your muscles get growth on the last 5 reps to fatigue, so really , the weight wouldn't come into it as much, if you're doing exercises slower, or with a shorter rest period , as long as your last rep is to (or 1 or 2 short of) fatigue. So a lighter weight on shorter rest period , or lighter weight with a much slower rep, will elicit the same gains as long as you are doing the same amount of sets.

It does get confusing, as I have also seen essays on rest periods of greater than 2+ mins giving greater hypertrophy. The issue with a lot of these studies is that the study is over too short a period.
So if you do say 3 min rest periods on a 5x5 over 10 weeks, you will have greater strength gains than someone on a 5x5 with 1 min rest periods.
This i agree with , its just with my experience that the body then gets used to this , so I wouldn't stick with this (3 min period for too long) and when I go into a shorter rest period for say 2 weeks (on will what will have to be a lighter weight) then I see my body adapting and when I go back to a longer period I can get over plateaus.

Anyway , I would definitely increase the amount of sets you're doing, and when going to the gym on a 2 or 3 day a week cycle, I think its important to hit every muscle group, so you would need to add chest and shoulders to be in each routine.
So you would need to inc your gym session length , or reduce your rest periods.

5x5 DL
5x5 chest
5x5 OH press
5x5 squat

Hits everything
20 sets , even a 2.30 min rest gives you 50 min rests so you'd be out in less then an hour
 
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I always look at volume when I change my routine, but then yes, when you have a routine, there are many variables which effect how much you can lift, not just the weight.
I usually plan everything on 2 min rests, but then occasionally have 1 or 3 min rests (even 30 secs once in a blue moon) or I do sets slower (a bench press of 10 reps can be made as hard doing 5 reps doing it really slow), so this changes the intensity like you said, so volume will not be as much.

I think (iirc) the meta studies are that volume plays a roll in muscle hypertrophy , but by this they mean volume in sets, not volume as you did , sets x reps x weight. So doing 5x5 no matter what the weight or tempo or rest period would create a similar inc in muscle growth as long as the intensity was the same (for me thats doing an exercise so when I stop I'm 1 rep from failure)
I'll have a look out for the study, it was on the stronger by science podcast which i find pretty good for all the meta analysis and explaining it to lamens like me.
Hopefully someone better educated will be able to confirm or refute what I've said!
@Stevie Freestein II


Here it suggests, like I said, that volume is no of sets, rather than sets x reps x weight.
Your muscles get growth on the last 5 reps to fatigue, so really , the weight wouldn't come into it as much, if you're doing exercises slower, or with a shorter rest period , as long as your last rep is to (or 1 or 2 short of) fatigue. So a lighter weight on shorter rest period , or lighter weight with a much slower rep, will elicit the same gains as long as you are doing the same amount of sets.

It does get confusing, as I have also seen essays on rest periods of greater than 2+ mins giving greater hypertrophy. The issue with a lot of these studies is that the study is over too short a period.
So if you do say 3 min rest periods on a 5x5 over 10 weeks, you will have greater strength gains than someone on a 5x5 with 1 min rest periods.
This i agree with , its just with my experience that the body then gets used to this , so I wouldn't stick with this (3 min period for too long) and when I go into a shorter rest period for say 2 weeks (on will what will have to be a lighter weight) then I see my body adapting and when I go back to a longer period I can get over plateaus.

Anyway , I would definitely increase the amount of sets you're doing, and when going to the gym on a 2 or 3 day a week cycle, I think its important to hit every muscle group, so you would need to add chest and shoulders to be in each routine.
So you would need to inc your gym session length , or reduce your rest periods.

5x5 DL
5x5 chest
5x5 OH press
5x5 squat

Hits everything
20 sets , even a 2.30 min rest gives you 50 min rests so you'd be out in less then an hour
Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail.
 
Let me know your results.

It’s the eccentric portion (the ‘downward’ part) of the squat which really counts and where you really feel the contraction of the muscle. As long as that part is steady and controlled, you’re not going to have much to worry about. I like paused squats as you can get a lot of benefit out of them, and again, that’s a way of really working the muscle without going crazy with the weights. I actually haven’t been doing those so much lately as I’ve started using a much narrower stance to maximise the tension on the quads, and adding a 5 second pause feels absolutely brutal.

If you’re looking to build muscle then you’re always going to gain some fat. That comes with the territory. The difference between doing something like 5x5 and the kind of training I prefer is for me night and day.

I’m talking about the difference between looking like I’m completely sedentary and having visible abs while eating the SAME diet. So bollocks? I don’t think so. It simply doesn’t burn enough calories for me, I don’t really enjoy that style of training and I’m too busy to micromanage my nutrition to make that style of training work for me, when I know that I can simply do a style of training I actually enjoy, keep eating the same food intake and still comfortably see the outline of my abs, let alone my feet. Which is my point. Thanks for your input though.

Belated response. Changed to 5x12 and f**k me have I noticed a difference. Pretty much goosed after the squats :lol: Best part is getting to 6 and feeling like it’s easy, then getting to around 10 and wondering how you’re going to get the next two out

Being able to focus on the technique and mind over muscle is working as I’m feeling it everywhere where I should and no where that I shouldn’t.

Hardest part is accepting you have to lower the weight right down.
 
Mostly been sticking with full body and likely will do until I do a bulk again next year. Did a bulk when I first got back to training with full body and was great for getting closer to where I should be. During last lockdown I just did an A and B full body session on the days I could coordinate using the facility.

Sticking with the original bulking plan (literally just knocking a working set off each scheduled number of sets) until the diet is over.

Probably go back to a split soon, but I enjoy full body and I'm a big fan of it. I got my two best totals whilst doing full body, actually.
 
I always look at volume when I change my routine, but then yes, when you have a routine, there are many variables which effect how much you can lift, not just the weight.
I usually plan everything on 2 min rests, but then occasionally have 1 or 3 min rests (even 30 secs once in a blue moon) or I do sets slower (a bench press of 10 reps can be made as hard doing 5 reps doing it really slow), so this changes the intensity like you said, so volume will not be as much.

I think (iirc) the meta studies are that volume plays a roll in muscle hypertrophy , but by this they mean volume in sets, not volume as you did , sets x reps x weight. So doing 5x5 no matter what the weight or tempo or rest period would create a similar inc in muscle growth as long as the intensity was the same (for me thats doing an exercise so when I stop I'm 1 rep from failure)
I'll have a look out for the study, it was on the stronger by science podcast which i find pretty good for all the meta analysis and explaining it to lamens like me.
Hopefully someone better educated will be able to confirm or refute what I've said!
@Stevie Freestein II


Here it suggests, like I said, that volume is no of sets, rather than sets x reps x weight.
Your muscles get growth on the last 5 reps to fatigue, so really , the weight wouldn't come into it as much, if you're doing exercises slower, or with a shorter rest period , as long as your last rep is to (or 1 or 2 short of) fatigue. So a lighter weight on shorter rest period , or lighter weight with a much slower rep, will elicit the same gains as long as you are doing the same amount of sets.

It does get confusing, as I have also seen essays on rest periods of greater than 2+ mins giving greater hypertrophy. The issue with a lot of these studies is that the study is over too short a period.
So if you do say 3 min rest periods on a 5x5 over 10 weeks, you will have greater strength gains than someone on a 5x5 with 1 min rest periods.
This i agree with , its just with my experience that the body then gets used to this , so I wouldn't stick with this (3 min period for too long) and when I go into a shorter rest period for say 2 weeks (on will what will have to be a lighter weight) then I see my body adapting and when I go back to a longer period I can get over plateaus.

Anyway , I would definitely increase the amount of sets you're doing, and when going to the gym on a 2 or 3 day a week cycle, I think its important to hit every muscle group, so you would need to add chest and shoulders to be in each routine.
So you would need to inc your gym session length , or reduce your rest periods.

5x5 DL
5x5 chest
5x5 OH press
5x5 squat

Hits everything
20 sets , even a 2.30 min rest gives you 50 min rests so you'd be out in less then an hour
To me, that workload in a single session seems quite high. Especially starting with deadlifts.

My first impression of it is that it would rack up quite a bit of fatigue, i think after a 5x5 on deadlift you'll struggle to really get a beneficial or progressive session out of the rest of the workout. I'm no expert it's just my impression, also think in terms of timeframe you have to consider a few warm up reps / sets on each exercise. You wouldn't get straight into a 5x5 work set on any of those exercises.

Edit: I will actually put a suggestion of my own on the thread for comparison when I get the chance to look over the thread again this week.
 
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To me, that workload in a single session seems quite high. Especially starting with deadlifts.

My first impression of it is that it would rack up quite a bit of fatigue, i think after a 5x5 on deadlift you'll struggle to really get a beneficial or progressive session out of the rest of the workout. I'm no expert it's just my impression, also think in terms of timeframe you have to consider a few warm up reps / sets on each exercise. You wouldn't get straight into a 5x5 work set on any of those exercises.

Edit: I will actually put a suggestion of my own on the thread for comparison when I get the chance to look over the thread again this week.
Depends.
I wouldn't do 5x5 DL and 5x5 squat as I put there (i usually do something like bulgarain squats with DL) but think this is OK for a beginner

Dead lifts are no more fatiguing than squats, imo.

Its what works for you I suppose.
Since that article I posted on volume, i think 15 sets is too low for most people in a workout if hypertrophy is the aim. And I know some 5x5 workouts have only 11 sets in a workout

I just like to work out every muscle group (which works for me as I often miss sessions) I try and go 3 times a week, but often twice, and here even if I go once I'm still getting everything in.

It just depends what works for you.
If you try 20 sets and you're too fatigued , then do less. If you're only doing 11 sets and you're feeling fresh after, there is obviously scope to do more.

BTW, I spend most of my time on higher rep ranges as hypertrophy is my main aim.
Probably about 1/3rd on low rep sets.
 
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Depends.
I wouldn't do 5x5 DL and 5x5 squat as I put there (i usually do something like bulgarain squats with DL) but think this is OK for a beginner

Dead lifts are no more fatiguing than squats, imo.

Its what works for you I suppose.
Since that article I posted on volume, i think 15 sets is too low for most people in a workout if hypertrophy is the aim. And I know some 5x5 workouts have only 11 sets in a workout

I just like to work out every muscle group (which works for me as I often miss sessions) I try and go 3 times a week, but often twice, and here even if I go once I'm still getting everything in.

It just depends what works for you.
If you try 20 sets and you're too fatigued , then do less. If you're only doing 11 sets and you're feeling fresh after, there is obviously scope to do more.

BTW, I spend most of my time on higher rep ranges as hypertrophy is my main aim.
Probably about 1/3rd on low rep sets.

Deadlifts are more fatiguing to the nervous system and 5x5 is likely eating up more recovery capacity than necessary for the tradeoff in progression.

With deadlifts, your nervous system just has to switch on immediately and the muscles have no myotatic tension at the most mechanically disadvantageous point in the movement, making it more taxing.

With squats and deadlifts, try to think of the recovery capacity coming from the same 'pool'. If you're going to add more volume to one, there'll be less left in the pool for the other.

A simple way to do it is decide a number of sets per week for lower body movements and then allocate it from there based on what you prefer/want to work on more. So if there's an absence of squat volume, higher deadlift volume isn't going to be an issue.
 
Deadlifts are more fatiguing to the nervous system and 5x5 is likely eating up more recovery capacity than necessary for the tradeoff in progression.

With deadlifts, your nervous system just has to switch on immediately and the muscles have no myotatic tension at the most mechanically disadvantageous point in the movement, making it more taxing.

With squats and deadlifts, try to think of the recovery capacity coming from the same 'pool'. If you're going to add more volume to one, there'll be less left in the pool for the other.

A simple way to do it is decide a number of sets per week for lower body movements and then allocate it from there based on what you prefer/want to work on more. So if there's an absence of squat volume, higher deadlift volume isn't going to be an issue.
OK, makes sense.
I just read reports that deadlifts and squats are more or less the same. I know when folk start out on stronglifts they are often doing squats 3 times a week and deadlifts once, so are programmed to think that they can do DL less , but a stronglift programme could easily be 3 days of DL and 1 of squats, i would think?


When working on my volume I would put DL in my back workout mind, thats why now if I do them I always put in some unilateral leg stuff like bulgarian squats or lunges, aswell as some shoulder press and chest press on my DL day.
Do you have DL as part of your leg volume?
 
OK, makes sense.
I just read reports that deadlifts and squats are more or less the same. I know when folk start out on stronglifts they are often doing squats 3 times a week and deadlifts once, so are programmed to think that they can do DL less , but a stronglift programme could easily be 3 days of DL and 1 of squats, i would think?


When working on my volume I would put DL in my back workout mind, thats why now if I do them I always put in some unilateral leg stuff like bulgarian squats or lunges, aswell as some shoulder press and chest press.
Do you have DL as part of your leg volume?

Nah mate, deadlifts are undoubtedly way more taxing on the body than squats. On a squat or bench press, even if you're pausing in the hole/on the chest, you still get a stretch reflex. In deadlifts, you don't. It's also generally going to be the lift that allows you to move the most overall weight. Both big factors in deadlift fatigue. Sometimes I've felt absolutely f***ing rotten for days after a heavy deadlift PB. Never really had it as bad from squat.

Yeah, I divide my lower body volume between squats and deads. It's above all else a hip hinge movement, with isometric upper body contributions.
 
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Nah mate, deadlifts are undoubtedly way more taxing on the body than squats. On a squat or bench press, even if you're pausing in the hole/on the chest, you still get a stretch reflex. In deadlifts, you don't. It's also generally going to be the lift that allows you to move the most overall weight. Both big factors in deadlift fatigue. Sometimes I've felt absolutely f***ing rotten for days after a heavy deadlift PB. Never really had it as bad from squat.

Yeah, I divide my lower body volume between squats and deads. It's above all else a hip hinge movement, with isometric upper body contributions.
I know there are loads of contradictory studying regarding it all. I suppose thats cos were all different, so often things work for some and not others, so its on your own experience.
I get your point about moving more overall volume on DL.
You obviously look at things from a far more professional capacity than most on here, who are probably like me, going to the gym to stay fit and get/stay strong. I rarely go for PBs and max out.
I can easily do 3 sets of DL a week and not feel.too bad, but then I'm not pushing myself to the extremes that you probably are.
If I feel a bit sore/fatigued (which is rare, I find 3 one hour workouts a week I can more or less do what I like) I just take a step back on intensity (which i will do tomorrow as haven't been sleeping too well) and really concentrate more on form/technique on a far lower weight than my previous session.
I even knew folk at my gym doing the big 3 workout (which I've never done as it sounds too much for me , but 5x5 on squats, 5x5 DL and 5x5 bench, 3 times a week)
I'll have a look at that study I read on DL and squats. Pretty sure it was Mike zourdos.


Edit , it was someone studying under him


But I obviously accept that at your level , deaflifts fatigue you far more than squats will.
At my level I don't really feel much difference.
 
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I know there are loads of contradictory studying regarding it all. I suppose thats cos were all different, so often things work for some and not others, so its on your own experience.
I get your point about moving more overall volume on DL.
You obviously look at things from a far more professional capacity than most on here, who are probably like me, going to the gym to stay fit and get/stay strong. I rarely go for PBs and max out.
I can easily do 3 sets of DL a week and not feel.too bad, but then I'm not pushing myself to the extremes that you probably are.
If I feel a bit sore/fatigued (which is rare, I find 3 one hour workouts a week I can more or less do what I like) I just take a step back on intensity (which i will do tomorrow as haven't been sleeping too well) and really concentrate more on form/technique on a far lower weight than my previous session.
I even knew folk at my gym doing the big 3 workout (which I've never done as it sounds too much for me , but 5x5 on squats, 5x5 DL and 5x5 bench, 3 times a week)
I'll have a look at that study I read on DL and squats. Pretty sure it was Mike zourdos.


Edit , it was someone studying under him


But I obviously accept that at your level , deaflifts fatigue you far more than squats will.
At my level I don't really feel much difference.

Yeah, I've seen that study.

As for the rest, I don't disagree. Do what you prefer with a reasonable intensity and you likely won't have an issue. For people just training in such a manner, adherence is more important than exchanging a few sets of deadlifts and squat between them.
 
Belated response. Changed to 5x12 and f**k me have I noticed a difference. Pretty much goosed after the squats :lol: Best part is getting to 6 and feeling like it’s easy, then getting to around 10 and wondering how you’re going to get the next two out

Being able to focus on the technique and mind over muscle is working as I’m feeling it everywhere where I should and no where that I shouldn’t.

Hardest part is accepting you have to lower the weight right down.
Quality, mate! I’m glad you’re seeing results!

The difference when you leave your ego at the door and focus on working the muscle through a full range of motion for 8-12 reps is unbelievable. I ego lifted for years and started doing this after a bunch of non-lifting related injuries, it’s still incredible to me how my muscles inflated like balloons in a short space of time.
 

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