God


But that just is not true. I have been perfectly reasonable on this thread and provided reasoned arguments.

Some others have said such beliefs are ridiculous (in today's times). It's difficult to disagree with that perspective.
It is true even if you personally are very reasonable. There's a dearth of theists on these threads and some physicalists can't tell the difference between a scholastic and theological argument.
 
Are you also agnostic about The Loch Ness Monster?
Yes.

I am skeptical about Loch Ness Monster existence. And, on the balance of probability, the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist. But I can't claim complete certainty regarding Loch Ness Monster non-existence.

And this is also how I feel about God. And I'm not going to go looking for either, because I'm cooking eggs.
Of course we should judge people on their actions, but also on their words too I think.
People often lie, or talk bollocks.

Actions are a more reliable measure.
 
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And as a non-believer I put in hours and hours of voluntary work for my community. The charity argument doesn't work. There are believers and non-believers who are both good and bad.

Of course there is no way to prove a god does not exist. The chances are pretty remote though based on every sensible understanding we have.

Anybody going through their life hoping for "the next one to be better" is utterly deluded and they won't know any better when they die.

Of course live and let live - no problem with that. But can we also ask that believers don't indoctrinate children or mutilate their bodies, that they stay away from law-making, they pay their taxes and they don't hurt or kill others in the name of their beliefs. Once those boxes are ticked then religious believers just become harmless individuals with their own set of odd beliefs.
Fair enough and I agree with a lot you say. As example I think the royal family and Church of England have way too much influence. In terms of schooling people make their choice where they send their kids and there are some decent c of e snd catholic schools. Ultimately if people don’t want that send their kids to another school.

In terms of volunteering I agree but people do voluntary work for many differing reasons and we shouldn’t knock it if it benefits others whatever peoples motives.

I have to say again live snd let live and some evangelical atheists are often as bad as evangelical Christians and members of some other faiths.
 
Yes.

I am skeptical about Loch Ness Monster existence. And, on the balance of probability, the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist. But I can't claim complete certainty regarding Loch Ness Monster non-existence.

And this is also how I feel about God.

But an atheist cannot prove there are no gods. Why would we even need a word for that if they first had to prove or be certain there are no gods? It is an impossible position. My understanding of the word atheist is the lack of a belief. My lack of a belief in gods, LNM or fairies is that there is no evidence.

Surely an agnostic is somebody who is undecided on whether they believe?

I think asking "Do you believe there is a god?" is a better question than "Is there a god?" My answer to #1 is "No" and to #2 is "I don't know". Those answers, I think, make me an atheist rather than an agnostic.


People often lie, or talk bollocks.

Actions are a more reliable measure.
I agree but we shouldn't dismiss words. I admire loads of people - some on here, others have written books, others I have heard on podcasts and radio. I've never met any of them. Can't I also judge them on their words?
 
Of course live and let live - no problem with that. But can we also ask that believers don't indoctrinate children or mutilate their bodies, that they stay away from law-making, they pay their taxes and they don't hurt or kill others in the name of their beliefs. Once those boxes are ticked then religious believers just become harmless individuals with their own set of odd beliefs.
I had Jehovah Witnesses knock the door the other day, a fairly frequent occurrence to be honest. I used to think it was a sect but now believe it is a cult. The version of the Bible they use is one translated by Jehovah Witnesses who had no knowledge of Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic except for one who had a basic knowledge of modern Greek but not to degree level so he had no knowledge of Ancient Greek. They are forbidden from any biblical research or study of other translations and other religions. Their entire doctrine and interpretation is decided by a small group of elites called the Governing Body based in America which they are not allowed to challenge. If they do engage in any research they will be thrown out and shunned by everyone that they have known; parents, siblings, children, cousins, aunts, uncles and every friend they have ever known who are Jehovah Witnesses. Even if passed on the street they will not even be acknowledged and are classed as being part of Satan. If that is not the hallmarks of a cult I don't know what is.

The sad thing is they can't see that and that their own children are indoctrinated from birth. But drips of doubt will occur. Those drips will be quickly dismissed and put to the back of the mind but they will continue until hopefully the dam bursts. The problem is that it can be devastating when that happens and the fear of being shunned by everyone you love will keep many in line. These are the real problems with some religious belief systems.
 
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believe, yes or no?
Mam is well into her faith, my sister learned to be Catholic (we're C&E family). I'm atheist, black sheep of the family

Every believer cant be correct, they can however all be wrong

When mrs (no) survived a near death incident, and im talking the nurses couldnt find her pulse, surgery, rib removed

Her folks going on about praise god. Im like that twat exists they caused it/ didnt prevent it. The doctors saved her.

God gave them the skills.. kin delusional

Needless to say i dont get invited to family services at the church
 
For that reason, I don't consider myself an atheist.

I don't think that God or the Loch Ness Monster exists. But I am not entirely certain, and I don't consider either issue to be worth the effort of taking on the exhaustive life mission to try to gain that certainty.

So you agree then that nobody can be an atheist, if you use your definition?
So it would then become a pointless term....
 
No, I did not write that.

I wrote that where the answer to a question can only either be true or false, it doesn't necessarily mean both outcomes are equally likely and that we can use other information to reasonably move our starting point from 50/50.

Ok lets look at logic.

The universe/reality contains everything it needs to exist within itself or the universe/reality would collapse. Even if we consider an external power that is allegedly necessary for the universe/reality to exist, then that power would be part of reality/universe anyway and so it is impossible for an external creator god to exist outside of reality.

Do you agree with that logic?
 
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Every believer cant be correct, they can however all be wrong

When mrs (no) survived a near death incident, and im talking the nurses couldnt find her pulse, surgery, rib removed

Her folks going on about praise god. Im like that twat exists they caused it/ didnt prevent it. The doctors saved her.

God gave them the skills.. kin delusional

Needless to say i dont get invited to family services at the church
Glad your missus survived. Hope she is doing well.

I wonder if a believer was in hospital with hours to live unless they got surgery...... if the surgeon walked in and said "would you like me to operate or pray for you?" I'll be my car what their response would be.
Ok lets look at logic.

The universe/reality contains everything it needs within itself or the universe/reality would collapse. Even if we consider an external power that is necessary for the universe/reality to exist, then that power would be part of reality/universe anyway and so it is impossible for an external creator god to exist outside of reality.

Do you agree with that logic?
I'm not sure we know that it would "collapse" or even what that means, but in essence I agree that if we consider the universe as "everything" then we cannot have a creator outside of that definition.
 
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Glad your missus survived. Hope she is doing well.

Thanks

Still deal with ramifications today. She (no) had at least 80 pints transfused that i witnessed. No idea what in surgery

A rib removed, blood sucked out of her lungs, and a metal spindly thing inserted in her neck to break up further clots.

I dont think the bible wouldve helped in this matter

Pps metal spindly thing extracted and we still have it
 
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For that reason, I don't consider myself an atheist.

I don't think that God or the Loch Ness Monster exists. But I am not entirely certain, and I don't consider either issue to be worth the effort of taking on the exhaustive life mission to try to gain that certainty.

Claimed knowledge of God's existence, or lack of, and belief in such are on separate axes.

There are some 'theists' who are technically agnostics, in that they concede that God's existence is unknowable but still pray to him.
 
Glad your missus survived. Hope she is doing well.

I wonder if a believer was in hospital with hours to live unless they got surgery...... if the surgeon walked in and said "would you like me to operate or pray for you?" I'll be my car what their response would be.

I'm not sure we know that it would "collapse" or even what that means, but in essence I agree that if we consider the universe as "everything" then we cannot have a creator outside of that definition.
The point is though that although we do not know the full extent of the laws of physics, the effect of those laws must be complete and their continued stability is not dependent on some external force or power. Therefore, the universe/reality is self contained. There can be no external God that the universe is dependent on. I think that is sound logic.
 
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The point is though that although we do not know the full extent of the laws of physics, the effect of those laws must be complete and their continued stability is not dependent on some external force or power. Therefore, the universe/reality is self contained. There can be no external God that the universe is dependent on. I think that is sound logic.
I don't think I have disagreed with any of that. What point are you getting at?
 
So you agree then that nobody can be an atheist, if you use your definition?
So it would then become a pointless term....
They can, if they have no respect for probability theory.

Each to their own. I don't have that certainly, and don't feel the need to seek it. And in the remore possibility that God turns up, I'll apologise to the dude as I was wrong.
Claimed knowledge of God's existence, or lack of, and belief in such are on separate axes.

There are some 'theists' who are technically agnostics, in that they concede that God's existence is unknowable but still pray to him.
Each to their own.
 
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I don't think I have disagreed with any of that. What point are you getting at?
No point except that there does appear to be a logical explanation for there being no external creator god without considering any middle ground or probabilities. The argument has a sound tautology.

The other proposal is that the universe came from nothing but absolute nothing would have absolutely no potentialities and therefore could not change. The nothing that preceded the big bang could not have been absolute nothing but a nothing with undefined infinite potentialities. That nothing was unbounded and had no limitations superimposed as the laws of physics had not emerged. Space and time were emergent factors of the universe and not fundamental.

Therefore the universe/reality as we know it could neither have been created by an external god or emerged from absolute nothing. You don't need to be a physicist to consider this but just capable of understanding simple logic.
 
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I've recently bought an English translation of the Quran like. Hoping to get stuck in to it over the weekend. Have quite a few Muslim friends / colleagues and I have to say their lives are typically (obviously this is only my opinion) much better than the majority of my non Muslim friends. Seems to be a much better focus on health and viewing the world through an open minded way. They are all really friendly aswell and respect different views.
 
Fair enough and I agree with a lot you say. As example I think the royal family and Church of England have way too much influence. In terms of schooling people make their choice where they send their kids and there are some decent c of e snd catholic schools. Ultimately if people don’t want that send their kids to another school.

In terms of volunteering I agree but people do voluntary work for many differing reasons and we shouldn’t knock it if it benefits others whatever peoples motives.

I have to say again live snd let live and some evangelical atheists are often as bad as evangelical Christians and members of some other faiths.

There are very few evangelical atheists. Have you ever had a pair of young atheists in suits knock on your door or stop you in the street and ask you to talk about no god ?
 
I've recently bought an English translation of the Quran like. Hoping to get stuck in to it over the weekend. Have quite a few Muslim friends / colleagues and I have to say their lives are typically (obviously this is only my opinion) much better than the majority of my non Muslim friends. Seems to be a much better focus on health and viewing the world through an open minded way. They are all really friendly aswell and respect different views.
Good luck with that. My least favourite scripture I would say although it's account of common history with the Hebrews is interesting. Personally, I prefer the Sufi branch of Islam.
 
Good luck with that. My least favourite scripture I would say although it's account of common history with the Hebrews is interesting.

I've not actually read any religious books at all to be honest, just at a point in life now where I feel there has to be a higher purpose so starting to take an open minded approach to it all.
 

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