October 2020 - Getting worse across Europe.

[ontap]

All this European envy was eminently predictable given that we have the NHS , we were able to roll out the vaccine process using a functioning NHS , which other european countries don't have and they are not happy about how difficult it has been for them to organise it all from scratch. As proved by their pathetic attempt last month to try and slow down the speed of the UK process by introducing red tape to stop us getting supplies fom manufacturers based in the EU. That was immediately back heeled after legal experts advised them they couldn't do that. So we than had Macron and Merkel rubbishing the effect of AZ and now they created a massive problem for themselves.

surely a bit early to say that

Absolutely not the data is there and solid.

 

[bahtat]

surely a bit early to say that

Have u read past his 1st sentence

 

[El Matador]

\Your basing your whole argument on recommendations made prior to the mass use of AZ , the resulting data has now debunked those claims as unfounded , its nothing to do with any anti europe bias, the facts are there for all to see, hospital admissions for the over 65's with the AZ vaccine are down 94% , with pfizer 84% both great figures. European medical experts were entitled to raise concerns prior to the roll out. The issue is , now that they have been proved wrong , they are unable/unwilling to persuade their own population to welcome AZ. Its very sad and no doubt will cost lives.

Exactly that.
I am not making any argument, simply trying to give an accurate account and timeline on how events occurred with the AstraZeneca vaccine within the EU after its approval by the EMA. The lies and spin from posters such as CEF are neither correct nor accurate and are being used to forward their anti EU agenda.
The new information from Scotland a few days ago is being peer reviewed as we speak and it is highly likely that the new scientific evidence will lead to a change in policy. I'm not sure why you think they are unable/unwilling to persuade their own population to welcome AZ. The AstraZeneca vaccines will not be wasted by the EU as they will be used on younger people while the older groups will be given one of the other vaccines. On an anecdotal level i've not had one conversation with any Spanish person on the merits of the AstraZeneca vaccine.

 

[FootballFan]

Absolutely not the data is there and solid.

How can it be solid given the time frames involved?

 

[joop]

Just had a quick peep at the countries with the high testing figures and they are generally the ones with the high deaths per million population figures,UK,USA,CZ,Belgium.

I wouldn’t agree that Czech Republic have high testing figures. Generally less than 40k PCR tests per day with more than 30% positivity rate.
There are increasing numbers of antigen testing being done and that will increase further in the coming weeks as employers will be obliged to test their employees four times per month. It is voluntary for the employers starting tomorrow but will soon become mandatory.

 

[El Matador]

All this European envy was eminently predictable given that we have the NHS , we were able to roll out the vaccine process using a functioning NHS , which other european countries don't have and they are not happy about how difficult it has been for them to organise it all from scratch. As proved by their pathetic attempt last month to try and slow down the speed of the UK process by introducing red tape to stop us getting supplies fom manufacturers based in the EU. That was immediately back heeled after legal experts advised them they couldn't do that. So we than had Macron and Merkel rubbishing the effect of AZ and now they created a massive problem for themselves.

Absolutely not the data is there and solid.

Wow. Which bit of the EMA approved the vaccine and then an esteemed scientific institute such as the Robert Koch and national health authorities in member countries questioned the efficiacy data provided to them by the manufacturer do you not get ?
And there we have it, exposed and naked vaccine nationalism. In one post you say "European medical experts were entitled to raise concerns prior to the roll out". Then you come out with that nonsense above.
The "European envy" is in your head. Europe is getting on with their programmes, some better than others, but they are all moving ahead and should all be completed after the autumn. That is good for everyone no ?

 

[thehighground]

Yes like I said - trial data showed greater effacacy with Pfizer, although AZ was still very good and the trial was restricted in older groups. Immune response for all groups was positive. Now much larger sets of data from real world vaccinations - again my clearly stated reference point - is showing that AZ is slightly better. That may well be because it is easier to handle and the effacacy of Pfizer deteriorates rapidly when it is above very low temperatures.

No doubt, if AZ was the only vaccine available, but there are others around now. The J&J one was approved by the FDA the other day (which would suggest that it will be approved elsewhere if they approved it). I know that Ireland has ordered a load of the Italian vaccine because it has a shelf life of 18 months.

No mate it’s no wonder at all. There is a dispute between AZ and the EU. Having looked into the information available it would seem that delays in supply of AZ to EU were caused by variability in yield rates which could not be addressed for the EU as there was a three month delay in signing the contract when compared to the UK. The contract being signed being exactly the same contract as Germany were about to sign three months earlier. The EU then had a knee jerk reaction - which would have potentially had very serious consequences for your country had not the head of your country stepped in and got the EU to see common sense. Since then there seem to be further attempts at arse covering by politicians in France and Germany by muddying the waters around effacacy and safety of AZ without any evidence. They also seem to want to deflect from the UKs so far apparently very good vaccine progress. All this has led to doubts about AZ and will cause people to die.
All in all it really shows that politicians should by and large listen to the experts and stop playing silly buggers.
The UK government is far from innocent in this fuck wittery as well - f***ing up PPE and track and trace by ideologically and corruptly favoring their mates and supporters over said experts. For me there also seems to be evidence that the arseholes also interfered in vaccine rollout a couple of weeks ago because some regions were getting ahead of other regions and they were worried about the political and likely ideological implications of that. All they succeeded in doing was slowing the vaccination program down and again unnecessarily killing people.

You also need to factor in that Pfizer is not being used in those same groups where problems have apparently occurred. If it had you may well have had exactly the same absence issues.

The bottom line is that EU countries don't have sufficient AZ vaccine anyway. It is not yet approved by the FDA (and probably won't be until April).

Here is an article in the FT about the problems with the AZ vaccine. Boris took a chance with the vaccine because he was under so much pressure to start using the vaccine. Individual EU countries didn't take that chance (on over 65s mostly) because there was not enough data supplied as to how well it worked on people over 65 who were the hardest hit group with the most deaths. As I've said already, there are efficacy issues of the AZ vaccine as according to the scientists, the Pfizer & Moderna vaccine are much easier to tweek so that they are effective against new variants.

Is the South African variant exposing weakness in Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine?

An uneven response to Covid-19 variants has developed into a crunch issue

www.irishtimes.com

FT Article on the issues with the AZ outside of the UK.

How AstraZeneca’s vaccine was hit by flawed trials, defects and politics — but might still save the world

Vaccine maker under pressure over clinical trial data and manufacturing problems

www.ft.com

Maybe just maybe if EU had got its finger out a a dam sight quicker and backed the project the manufacture would of been able to put the facilities in place, asks yourself why EU has a supply problem and the UK doesn’t

There you go, that will explain a lot.

How AstraZeneca’s vaccine was hit by flawed trials, defects and politics — but might still save the world

Vaccine maker under pressure over clinical trial data and manufacturing problems

www.ft.com

 

[bahtat]

Wow. Which bit of the EMA approved the vaccine and then an esteemed scientific institute such as the Robert Koch and national health authorities in member countries questioned the efficiacy data provided to them by the manufacturer do you not get ?
And there we have it, exposed and naked vaccine nationalism. In one post you say "European medical experts were entitled to raise concerns prior to the roll out". Then you come out with that nonsense above.
The "European envy" is in your head. Europe is getting on with their programmes, some better than others, but they are all moving ahead and should all be completed after the autumn. That is good for everyone no ?

Completed after Autumn? Next winter then! That is good for everyone no? Yes NO, all that does is give the virus more time to mutate into a vaccine immune variant, a very dangerous gamble in my humble opinion

 

[thehighground]

All this European envy was eminently predictable given that we have the NHS , we were able to roll out the vaccine process using a functioning NHS , which other european countries don't have and they are not happy about how difficult it has been for them to organise it all from scratch. As proved by their pathetic attempt last month to try and slow down the speed of the UK process by introducing red tape to stop us getting supplies fom manufacturers based in the EU. That was immediately back heeled after legal experts advised them they couldn't do that. So we than had Macron and Merkel rubbishing the effect of AZ and now they created a massive problem for themselves.

Absolutely not the data is there and solid.

There isn't any European envy. Facts are that with the failure of the AZ supply, the EU countries have moved on to using other vaccines (as well as the AZ one). I know the Irish health service (HSE) is regarded as being absolute crap, but every drop of vaccine they have got is in someone's arm and were let down last week again by AZ with their failure to deliver 25,000 does.

 

[bomber]

I wouldn’t agree that Czech Republic have high testing figures. Generally less than 40k PCR tests per day with more than 30% positivity rate.
There are increasing numbers of antigen testing being done and that will increase further in the coming weeks as employers will be obliged to test their employees four times per month. It is voluntary for the employers starting tomorrow but will soon become mandatory.

CZ has tested 750,000 per million pop,its about 7-8th in the EU.

 

[The Cheat]

I can't work out if you're thick, a wind up merchant or just so pro EU you can't see beyond what they are telling you.

Check out some of his posts in the politics forum for a laugh then put him on ignore. He's an idiot.

 

[bahtat]

No doubt, if AZ was the only vaccine available, but there are others around now. The J&J one was approved by the FDA the other day (which would suggest that it will be approved elsewhere if they approved it). I know that Ireland has ordered a load of the Italian vaccine because it has a shelf life of 18 months.

The bottom line is that EU countries don't have sufficient AZ vaccine anyway. It is not yet approved by the FDA (and probably won't be until April).

Here is an article in the FT about the problems with the AZ vaccine. Boris took a chance with the vaccine because he was under so much pressure to start using the vaccine. Individual EU countries didn't take that chance (on over 65s mostly) because there was not enough data supplied as to how well it worked on people over 65 who were the hardest hit group with the most deaths. As I've said already, there are efficacy issues of the AZ vaccine as according to the scientists, the Pfizer & Moderna vaccine are much easier to tweek so that they are effective against new variants.

Is the South African variant exposing weakness in Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine?

An uneven response to Covid-19 variants has developed into a crunch issue

www.irishtimes.com

FT Article on the issues with the AZ outside of the UK.

How AstraZeneca’s vaccine was hit by flawed trials, defects and politics — but might still save the world

Vaccine maker under pressure over clinical trial data and manufacturing problems

www.ft.com

There you go, that will explain a lot.

How AstraZeneca’s vaccine was hit by flawed trials, defects and politics — but might still save the world

Vaccine maker under pressure over clinical trial data and manufacturing problems

www.ft.com

In view of the speed this virus and the speed with with which treatments are being developed are moving it would help if you could provide some up to date articles

Not her exact words but leader of EU commission “problem is not the ability of companies to deliver the product but rather that we didn’t understand the complexities of manufacturing vaccines”

 

[bomber]

There isn't any European envy.

they would be if the UK death toll wasnt the highest in europe.

 

[Select coaches]

they would be if the UK death toll wasnt the highest in europe.

You keep bringing that up however that isn’t what is being discussed. There are plenty of other threads talking about that if you would like to join in.

 

[joop]

CZ has tested 750,000 per million pop,its about 7-8th in the EU.

Yesterday there were 21.6k tests done here in Czech Republic. That is the equivalent of 130k tests done in uk. Would you consider that was sufficient? I don’t.
When you also consider that over 30% of tests are positive, it demonstrates that it is nowhere near enough.

 

[bomber]

You keep bringing that up however that isn’t what is being discussed. There are plenty of other threads talking about that if you would like to join in.

This thread is titled getting worse across europe,the UK is in Europe.This thread is perfect for such a comment.Its been hijacked recently and needs to get back on track.

 

[CEF]

Why do you keep repeating these lies and nonsense ?

It was the very highly respected Robert Koch Institute in Germany who said there was insufficient data to judge how effective the vaccine was for people over 65, and as a result it could only recommend using the vaccine on people aged 18 to 64. That was not lies from the Institute but a recommendation based on the scientific evidence available to them at the time.

Why do you keep picking out only Germany and Macron in France for your spinning of lies ? Many other countries such as Austria, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain and Poland only recommended it for people under 65, and Italy and Belgium for those under 55 based on the scientific evidence they had from the manufacturer. What do you think Switzerland based their choice on not to use AstraZeneca at all ? Or how about the USA who have not even approved it unlike the EMA.

You clearly have an anti European agenda and feel the need to spin lies and half truths to suit that agenda.

Macron said it was quasi effective. That is an out right lie.
The Germann press spread rumours it wasn't hardly effective at all in over 65s. Again an out right lie.
Your pro-EU agenda has blinded you to the lies told by your politicians, and it's costing lives. If you don't want to take it, don't, but please stop repeating their lies.

 

[Select coaches]

This thread is titled getting worse across europe,the UK is in Europe.This thread is perfect for such a comment.Its been hijacked recently and needs to get back on track.

You and a few others just bang on and on about the same thing all the time. Anything to criticise this country, not really sure what you get out of it.

 

[bomber]

Yesterday there were 21.6k tests done here in Czech Republic. That is the equivalent of 130k tests done in uk. Would you consider that was sufficient? I don’t.
When you also consider that over 30% of tests are positive, it demonstrates that it is nowhere near enough.

Seems low i would agree,i was merely going off the tests per million population since the start.

You and a few others just bang on and on about the same thing all the time. Anything to criticise this country, not really sure what you get out of it.

Hows stating a fact being critical? ive praised the UK when necessary and i will be critical where need be.I get nothing out of it.

 

[bahtat]

they would be if the UK death toll wasnt the highest in europe.

U.K. Excess deaths aren’t though which is accepted by most as a far more accurate indicator of the trUe situation

Eleven European countries have far greater excess deaths per 100,00p citizens since start of pandemic than U.K. and one has the same

Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries

In many parts of the world, official death tolls undercount the total number of fatalities

www.economist.com