Gammon-Watch: Jamesons , Sunderland - Thu 6th Dec

[Deleted member 25315]

No, there are systems in place to scrutinise research, nothing is just accepted as fact.


And what don’t we have by being part of the eu?

We have democracy and sovereignty.

The only thing that is in question is being part of a system to try and agree laws and standards on a larger scale.

What is it we can’t do?

Also, on FOM, who is it we don’t want to come?

It comes across that ‘we’ just want to have control for the sake of it.

Personally, I don’t mind where laws are made as long as they are good ones.

Well there's the crux- I don't want leaders implementing policies and laws that affect me when I have no direct influence at the ballot box.

 

[Hep]

Well there's the crux- I don't want leaders implementing policies and laws that affect me when I have no direct influence at the ballot box.

This is the myth though.

We do vote in Meps who then appoint positions, not that different from senior civil servants and better than the House of Lords.

My vote in our current system is totally worthless in the uk parliament, the government is decided by the marginal constituencies

 

[Deleted member 25315]

This is the myth though.

We do vote in Meps who then appoint positions, not that different from senior civil servants and better than the House of Lords.

My vote in our current system is totally worthless in the uk parliament, the government is decided by the marginal constituencies

C'mon man- why would Junker say that in the future leaders of the EU should be directly elected by its citizens if it wasn't a beacon of democracy? Why did the electoral reform state that the EU has serious democratic flaws?
Tony Benn: "It's clear that what the EU has become is not democratic"
The only good that will come of it if we stay, is inevitably more UKIP meps in the EU parliament, badgering and opposing every decision. Maybe, they'll think it's not worth all the aggro.

 

[Ben Gardner]

Can’t believe so many people are still justifying their leave vote with the likes of “sovereignty”, “taking back control”, “democracy” blah blah blah.

It’s a fear of foreigners but leave voters won’t admit to it. Regardless of what you say, Immigration is not the problem. Funding is.

If there wasn’t such a strain enforced on the NHS, council housing, the education system and the emergency services, there’d be LOADS of room for these scary foreigners.

There’s a net PROFIT from having immigrants living in this country. Maybe we should have more?

 

[Keith S30S]

Research would suggest it would be lower than if he had gone to university and spent more time in education.

This university of life stuff is a bit cringeworthy tbh.

You can't research 2 different scenarios for the same person.

My main point was people who didn't go to uni in the 80's won't be any less intelligent than people of similar abilities who did in 2018. IQ is only one way of determine intelligence anyway.

After studying at college for 4 years in my late 30's / early 40's did I feel anymore intelligent? Nope. I had more knowledge of the study subject but that would have not altered my IQ. I also gained some other skills but that was mainly PC based applications which if I'd been born 20 years later I would have picked up when I was at school. I only saw my first very basic computer at school when I was about 14!

Can’t believe so many people are still justifying their leave vote with the likes of “sovereignty”, “taking back control”, “democracy” blah blah blah.

It’s a fear of foreigners but leave voters won’t admit to it. Regardless of what you say, Immigration is not the problem. Funding is.

If there wasn’t such a strain enforced on the NHS, council housing, the education system and the emergency services, there’d be LOADS of room for these scary foreigners.

There’s a net PROFIT from having immigrants living in this country. Maybe we should have more?

Aye, cos money for the NHS, housing and social care grows on trees...

 

[mickeymoor]

Amazing the depth of political knowledge the burger flippers, shelf fillers, and phone jockeys of the S.M.B.have .

Its all down to the quality of S.M.B teachers refresh by their long holidays and the guidance of Ofsted

 

[Keawyeds]

The country voted to leave the EU. Get over it you tedious bellend.

No, 51.8% of the people who actually voted, voted to leave. That's not exactly what you'd call a commanding majority.
They voted to "leave the EU" but I bet the vast majority didn't think any further than that.

I cannot see how any one who voted leave thinks we're going to be better off. Every thinktank, every analyst, even the government have said we will be worse off!
How is that good?!

 

[mad cyril]

No, 51.8% of the people who actually voted, voted to leave. That's not exactly what you'd call a commanding majority.
They voted to "leave the EU" but I bet the vast majority didn't think any further than that.

I cannot see how any one who voted leave thinks we're going to be better off. Every thinktank, every analyst, even the government have said we will be worse off!
How is that good?!

There’s a lot of well balanced people who voted leave who would certainly change their vote if allowed. There’s also a lot of well balanced people who voted leave for valid reasons who stand by those views.
Unfortunately the majority of leave voters voted because in their head they are ‘getting their country back’ and they can now put the ‘great back in Britain’. These people, despite staring at a potential economic disaster, will never change their mind in my opinion.

 

[Aituk7]

No, 51.8% of the people who actually voted, voted to leave. That's not exactly what you'd call a commanding majority.
They voted to "leave the EU" but I bet the vast majority didn't think any further than that.

I cannot see how any one who voted leave thinks we're going to be better off. Every thinktank, every analyst, even the government have said we will be worse off!
How is that good?!

Werll if we're being fair remainers didn't all vote for the same thing either. There were those who wanted the status quo, there were those who wanted to join in further, there were those who wanted to reform the EU.

 

[Keawyeds]

Werll if we're being fair remainers didn't all vote for the same thing either. There were those who wanted the status quo, there were those who wanted to join in further, there were those who wanted to reform the EU.

I agree. But I'd like to think that the overall reason that people voted remain was that they saw we were better off as part of a collective than trying to fight for our share on a global scale, when in reality we are quite a small player. Rather a bigger player in a decent sized pool which could then play off against other big units, than try and have a crack at it with no backup.

You can't reform the EU if you're outside it. If Leavers hated it so much, they could push for change rather than toys out the pram.
The EU isn't perfect, but from what I can see it's done more to help poorer areas of the country and spark regeneration than it would have done if we weren't in it.

Don't get me started on "Sovereignty". What a load of bollocks.

 

[Aituk7]

I agree. But I'd like to think that the overall reason that people voted remain was that they saw we were better off as part of a collective than trying to fight for our share on a global scale, when in reality we are quite a small player. Rather a bigger player in a decent sized pool which could then play off against other big units, than try and have a crack at it with no backup.

You can't reform the EU if you're outside it. If Leavers hated it so much, they could push for change rather than toys out the pram.
The EU isn't perfect, but from what I can see it's done more to help poorer areas of the country and spark regeneration than it would have done if we weren't in it.

Don't get me started on "Sovereignty". What a load of bollocks.

Well I will equally throw back reform from within is a load of bollocks. The EU can't meaningfully reform. It is designed from the ground up to be a corporatist lobby for unelected bureaucracy.

 

[Patch]

What the fuck does gammon mean?

Well you know how the French call the English "Roz bif"? The Spaniards are known as gammons due to their love of "Jamon". There's going to be a Spanish invasion of Spoons next month.

 

[Keawyeds]

Well I will equally throw back reform from within is a load of bollocks. The EU can't meaningfully reform. It is designed from the ground up to be a corporatist lobby for unelected bureaucracy.

No democracy is perfect, but it's better than a dictatorship.

 

[mickeymoor]

Doesn't need to be either or. We just need an agreement where people who are from northern ireland are allowed to travel to the south and vice versa regardless. There are already customs checks in place for certain goods where things like VAT etc. vary. We agree to keep our standards on the most prominent;y transported goods the same as the EU's and voila we have a workable solution.

More or less happen since 1922 it exactly what the DUP do not like

 

[Aituk7]

No democracy is perfect, but it's better than a dictatorship.

We aren't siding with dictatorship so I don't know why you mentioned that.

And the EU in my opinion is a really shit version of democracy. It's more like a plutocracy. It is far similar to the roman republic than it is to any modern western democracy.

More or less happen since 1922 it exactly what the DUP do not like

The government shouldn't be relying on the DUP to pass this. The deal should have been good enough that enough labour and conservative MP's who wished to respect the result of the referendum would have voted for it. But what we have is worse than no deal in some respects.

 

[Patch]

We had all these reports, charts, graphs etc two years past saying it was going to cost a fortune and it didn't, nothing of substance mate.
Stop crying and get along to one of the tramps pubs and cheer yourself up.

We haven't exited yet, but the pound has lost value, our economy has slowed, the old "of course the EU will make a deal... it will be the easiest deal ever" hasn't yet materialised. EU institutions are moving to continental Europe, banks are ramping up their operations in Paris and Frankfurt.

Just to reiterate, that's on the expectation of some sort of deal.

 

[WHD]

Well I will equally throw back reform from within is a load of bollocks. The EU can't meaningfully reform. It is designed from the ground up to be a corporatist lobby for unelected bureaucracy.

If we end up remaining in the EU, do you think remain voters will be crying and screaming "THIS IS NOT WHAT I VOTED FOR! ".

The point being made is leave voters are complaining about the brexit being delivered, when brexit could have been around a dozen variations. No remainers at all would have complained remaining wasn't as expected.

 

[Aituk7]

We haven't exited yet, but the pound has lost value, our economy has slowed, the old "of course the EU will make a deal... it will be the easiest deal ever" hasn't yet materialised. EU institutions are moving to continental Europe, banks are ramping up their operations in Paris and Frankfurt.

Just to reiterate, that's on the expectation of some sort of deal.

What May brought back is a betrayal of this country never mind brexit voters. I cannot believe how f***ing stupid that bitch has been... absolutely pathetic.

If we end up remaining in the EU, do you think remain voters will be crying and screaming "THIS IS NOT WHAT I VOTED FOR! ".

The point being made is leave voters are complaining about the brexit being delivered, when brexit could have been around a dozen variations. No remainers at all would have complained remaining wasn't as expected.

The shit she has offered up as "brexit" is for me the equivalent of remain winning and her joining us to the Euro.

 

[Patch]

It's hard to keep track the way the board works, as you scroll you then reply before going onto another page and seeing you've already answered.

Basically the deal forces us to stay in the customs union in perpetuity until the EU agrees we can
She said we need strong and stable government - She couldn't get a majority and is on the verge of suffering a motion of no confidence

She said we didn't need a coalition of chaos - She went into coalition with the DUP and they could be leaving very soon

She said no deal is better than a bad deal - This deal doesn't even hit her own red lines she listed at the start of the negotiations of the minimum she would accept, so it is a bad deal and yet she is still trying to get it through the commons.

However you look at it, she's awful like... and the EU must feel like they got the best of everything.

In the meantime we get hardly any of the freedoms brexit allows.

Apart from the backstop, what are the big-ticket freedoms that we don't get?

I genuinely believe a hard Brexit could be good for the future of the country. A change in the old thinking of growth and big business above all else.

A "change in the thinking"... what does that mean? Are you saying you voted to throw our five cards in and see if we get a better five from the pack? If not then I think you need to elaborate on what this new thinking might entail.

 

[Aituk7]

Apart from the backstop, what are the big-ticket freedoms that we don't get?



A "change in the thinking"... what does that mean? Are you saying you voted to throw our five cards in and see if we get a better five from the pack? If not then I think you need to elaborate on what this new thinking might entail.

We are handing over 39 billion as part of the deal with no trading arrangements in return
We still have to obey many EU laws not affecting trade without any say on how they are created or implemented
The ECJ still holds juridiction over us.

But the backstop is the main problem I have, it's ludicrous... and to not put a date on it either or give us the right to pull away. I mean what kind of f***ing brexit is that? It's easier to leave the EU than it is to leave this stupid backstop... atleast we don't need EU approval when we wanted to leave originally.