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I'd have to watch it again but I remember thinking at the time most of the 50:50's were going there way, in fact that's what Jason Cundy said on the commentary too so not just my imagination.

That's what fans generally do though, they imagine that most things are going against them. Just as the Bradford fans were.

But I am only in row 12 so I am not exactly high up.
And The ref and the linesman? Surely one of them should see it, the linesman had a clear view of that handball tbf.
It's letting them off a little bit lightly that, imo of course.

But that's the linesman, not the ref. Unless you're saying the linesmen have an agenda too?
 
That's what fans generally do though, they imagine that most things are going against them. Just as the Bradford fans were.



But that's the linesman, not the ref. Unless you're saying the linesmen have an agenda too?
I do think the linesmen get away with a lack of criticism
 
That's what fans generally do though, they imagine that most things are going against them. Just as the Bradford fans were.



But that's the linesman, not the ref. Unless you're saying the linesmen have an agenda too?

but the commentators are neutral and they made the comment and not all fans are delusional all of the time
 
Are you really telling me you can spot diving at full speed and one look each time surely not?

Surely there will have been loads of times you have been to a match,went home and watched it on MOTD and it looked different or you were wrong.

There has been at least 20 more clearer pens this season than the Southampton one,but do admit the linesman was terrible for not spotting the handball against Hull,although of course Marriner got the blame

No ex-players would ever take up been a ref,because 20 years building up a rapport with football fans would be destroyed within 3/4 games when these inevitable mistakes happen.

It is the speed of the game and the good standard of cheating from players that makes it impossible for refs not the standard off them.

Yes, I genuinely think I can spot diving most times and I think most football fans can - you must watch games and see diving - its even easier to spot at the match than on TV. I would be very happy if the FA came out and said we will book every time you dive and we will get it wrong now and again but its not the refs fault its the cheating players. I remember one World Cup when Germany got 2 players booked for diving in the early rounds. Germany then stopped diving - their manager (Low) had clearly told them to stop because he knew he'd lose players. The FA and FIFA have never, ever had a campaign to stop diving and I believe it would not be difficult to drastically reduce.

As for players not taking up reffing I think you are wrong again. I talked to a bloke who reffed up to Conference level and he said it would not be accepted for players to be 'fast tracked' as the referees association believes you have to start at grass roots and 'earn' your promotion through the leagues - so the 16 year olds you see reffing in the Russell Foster league will be the ones progressing through their slow progress up the leagues - these are the young lads who have never played football. I think if the FA and Refs Association put out a call for ex- players or players who had fallen out the league or not quite made the grade they would get inundated and we would get people into referring who understood far better the game than the current bunch.

I'm afraid you come across as an apologist for a bunch of very well paid incompetents. You haven't refed in the past, have you?
 
Yes, I genuinely think I can spot diving most times and I think most football fans can - you must watch games and see diving - its even easier to spot at the match than on TV. I would be very happy if the FA came out and said we will book every time you dive and we will get it wrong now and again but its not the refs fault its the cheating players. I remember one World Cup when Germany got 2 players booked for diving in the early rounds. Germany then stopped diving - their manager (Low) had clearly told them to stop because he knew he'd lose players. The FA and FIFA have never, ever had a campaign to stop diving and I believe it would not be difficult to drastically reduce.

As for players not taking up reffing I think you are wrong again. I talked to a bloke who reffed up to Conference level and he said it would not be accepted for players to be 'fast tracked' as the referees association believes you have to start at grass roots and 'earn' your promotion through the leagues - so the 16 year olds you see reffing in the Russell Foster league will be the ones progressing through their slow progress up the leagues - these are the young lads who have never played football. I think if the FA and Refs Association put out a call for ex- players or players who had fallen out the league or not quite made the grade they would get inundated and we would get people into referring who understood far better the game than the current bunch.

I'm afraid you come across as an apologist for a bunch of very well paid incompetents. You haven't refed in the past, have you?

To call them incompetent for making honest mistakes in such a fast pace difficult environment is quite frankly pathetic

Its been proved year after year in leagues throughout the world that if you are wanting perfection or close to it the job is simply to difficult to do

Do yoy honestly believe there is a way refs and linesman can be trained so its possible to cut all these mistakes out? Cos if you do you should pitch your idea to all the governing bodies throughout the world

All this understanding the game is f***ing clap trap to. Do you really think when a official fucks up its because he doesn't understand the game?

How many ex professionals do you hear on tele who don't even know the rules never mind have the capability to ref a gane
 
but the commentators are neutral and they made the comment and not all fans are delusional all of the time

It's just a commentator's opinion. And I know not all fans are delusional all of the time.

I do think the linesmen get away with a lack of criticism

Do you think linesmen have an agenda? It's true that in recent years in games involving Friend and Marriner, some big decisions have gone against us. But as you rightly point out, some of the flak they come in for is more down to the linesman than themselves, yet the ref takes all the blame and is accused of being corrupt.

Yes, I genuinely think I can spot diving most times and I think most football fans can - you must watch games and see diving - its even easier to spot at the match than on TV. I would be very happy if the FA came out and said we will book every time you dive and we will get it wrong now and again but its not the refs fault its the cheating players.
This could be a fair compromise. It's impossible for referees to get dives correct each time, even sat at home watching countless replays there are disagreements, not just on whether a player dived, but what constitutes a dive in the first place. I'm not sure there's a black and white description of diving that everyone would agree on.

However, your interpretation is open to a lot of debate, as inevitably referees will still get it wrong. It's impossible not to, really.

I think if the FA and Refs Association put out a call for ex- players or players who had fallen out the league or not quite made the grade they would get inundated and we would get people into referring who understood far better the game than the current bunch.

I hear this a fair bit. Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by referees 'understanding the game'? Because it seems to me that the biggest issues people have with referees are getting the blatantly obvious things wrong, such as clear handballs or fouls which should result in a penalty. I'm not sure how that equates to an understanding of the game.

Apologies @10 Gary Rowells, I've ballsed the quoting up on the above post and can no longer edit it. Hopefully you can pick out my points :)

All this understanding the game is f***ing clap trap to. Do you really think when a official fucks up its because he doesn't understand the game?

Yeah, this needs clarifying. Not 'understanding the game' would surely apply to aspects such as understanding why a boot might be a bit high in a challenge without it being dangerous, or when a team would rather play an advantage/have a free kick, or if a players has been deceptively cynical. Yet it's clear decisions that refs have got wrong that are continually brought up in this debate.
 
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It's just a commentator's opinion. And I know not all fans are delusional all of the time.



Do you think linesmen have an agenda? It's true that in recent years in games involving Friend and Marriner, some big decisions have gone against us. But as you rightly point out, some of the flak they come in for is more down to the linesman than themselves, yet the ref takes all the blame and is accused of being corrupt.



Apologies @10 Gary Rowells, I've ballsed the quoting up on the above post and can no longer edit it. Hopefully you can pick out my points :)



Yeah, this needs clarifying. Not 'understanding the game' would surely apply to aspects such as understanding why a boot might be a bit high in a challenge without it being dangerous, or when a team would rather play an advantage/have a free kick, or if a players has been deceptively cynical. Yet it's clear decisions that refs have got wrong that are continually brought up in this debate.
Not sure I've ever said they are corrupt or have an agenda mind. But you can't help people questioning why they seem to get it so consistently wrong when they referee our games
 
Not sure I've ever said they are corrupt or have an agenda mind. But you can't help people questioning why they seem to get it so consistently wrong when they referee our games

I didn't mean you'd personally accused them of being corrupt, I think your usual stance is that they're incompetent. Other people are making these claims though.
 
Can you remember any of these decisions that he got wrong? For me he gave them a few soft free-kicks, and he gave us some soft ones too. Fletcher's was as clear a booking as you'll see, Larsson's was pretty clear too I seem to remember, I can't remember Jones'. Bradford fans were going mental with Friend when they booked their lad...

So "ignoring" the penalty call :rolleyes: what did you make on the "lunge" on Graham which left him with a bloody face?

I'll say it yet again mind, how any Sunderland "fan" can defend Friend is beyond me. :lol: Does it make you all feel high & mighty? Rising above our petty grievances and clear biasm? Or maybe, just maybe the vast majority are right on this one....

Friend has not been good to Sunderland over a 5 year period. Really not sure what we're even disputing here
 
So "ignoring" the penalty call :rolleyes: what did you make on the "lunge" on Graham which left him with a bloody face?

I'll say it yet again mind, how any Sunderland "fan" can defend Friend is beyond me. :lol: Does it make you all feel high & mighty? Rising above our petty grievances and clear biasm? Or maybe, just maybe the vast majority are right on this one....

Friend has not been good to Sunderland over a 5 year period. Really not sure what we're even disputing here

Your words were 'it's also the inconsistency of the 'small' fouls within a game', so obviously we're not talking about the penalty. We all know he got that wrong.

Unfortunately, no highlights I've seen have shown the 'lunge' on Graham, so on the one viewing I did have I thought it was quite a strong challenge, perhaps a foul. I don't think the Bradford defender intended on leaving Graham with a bloody face.

People end up defending him because others go out of their way to criticise him for things he was fine at. The game against Chelsea earlier in the season for example; he was fine, yet there were people calling for his head yet again. The game against Bradford, those criticising him for the non-award of the penalty are spot on, but those criticising him for being against us in general throughout the game are wrong (IMO of course, not that I should need to clarify that). As I say, I was sat with the Bradford fans and there were murmurs that he wasn't giving decisions to them that they believe they should have had.

I've already agreed that the likes of Friend and Marriner have given more major decisions against us than they have for us, but you know exactly what we're disputing. Don't pretend otherwise.
 
Your words were 'it's also the inconsistency of the 'small' fouls within a game', so obviously we're not talking about the penalty. We all know he got that wrong.

Unfortunately, no highlights I've seen have shown the 'lunge' on Graham, so on the one viewing I did have I thought it was quite a strong challenge, perhaps a foul. I don't think the Bradford defender intended on leaving Graham with a bloody face.

People end up defending him because others go out of their way to criticise him for things he was fine at. The game against Chelsea earlier in the season for example; he was fine, yet there were people calling for his head yet again. The game against Bradford, those criticising him for the non-award of the penalty are spot on, but those criticising him for being against us in general throughout the game are wrong (IMO of course, not that I should need to clarify that). As I say, I was sat with the Bradford fans and there were murmurs that he wasn't giving decisions to them that they believe they should have had.

I've already agreed that the likes of Friend and Marriner have given more major decisions against us than they have for us, but you know exactly what we're disputing. Don't pretend otherwise.

Maybe we're not disputing the same thing then fella. I'm disputing that in over 50% of his games over a 5 year period this particular ref has been a nightmare for us. What are you disputing?

As for the record, I also watched the game and we didn't get the rub of the green on the smaller fouls either, which the commentators also mentioned. The foul on Graham? He saw it, gave the foul but somehow no card.

You see, you admit he's got another bg decision wrong against us, but somehow don't seem to understand why the MAJORITY of fans are outraged with this ref.

For the record I actually defend refs on the whole. They have a difficult job. Friend & Marinner? Would be happy to see both thrown in a crocodile river.
 
Maybe we're not disputing the same thing then fella. I'm disputing that in over 50% of his games over a 5 year period this particular ref has been a nightmare for us. What are you disputing?

As for the record, I also watched the game and we didn't get the rub of the green on the smaller fouls either, which the commentators also mentioned. The foul on Graham? He saw it, gave the foul but somehow no card.

You see, you admit he's got another bg decision wrong against us, but somehow don't seem to understand why the MAJORITY of fans are outraged with this ref.

For the record I actually defend refs on the whole. They have a difficult job. Friend & Marinner? Would be happy to see both thrown in a crocodile river.

I'm disputing the small inconsistencies. He's made some high profile decisions that have gone against us, but I don't believe he's consistently getting the small things wrong, at least no more than any other ref. Somebody else mentioned how Friend gave Bradford everything. He didn't.

I never said I don't understand why people are outraged with him, after all he got a big decision wrong which may have cost us.
 
We do seem to have Friend and Marriner referee our games more often than any other official, and I have to admit I cringe every time I see that they have our next game. I will never forget that at the end of his poor performance in the Boxing Day match against Hull City, Marriner walked off the pitch while the crowd made their feelings clear. What did he do? – he looked up to the crowd, cupped his has hand to his ear, and smiled. Totally unprofessional, Mr.Marriner.

Because we are not allowed to have two of the best refs, i.e. Clattenburg and Oliver, we end up with these two more often. It should not happen though. There should be sufficient referees to ensure that any given team only has a particular referee once at home and once away in a season. That way would ensure that most of the obvious bias shown by some officials is minimised. Don’t expect the powers that be to do anything about it any time soon though.

I posted a link to this last week but no one seems to have commented on it. There is a website, you-are-the-ref.com, which is put together by ‘professional’ journalists and ex ‘professional’ referees and players, (I use the word ‘professional’ very loosely). On the tab, ‘YATR.TV – The Ref Show’, there are links to weekly discussions, usually posted on a Monday, of the previous weekends games and referee performances. This week there is no video discussion on last weekend’s games, and if you watch the ‘9th February-Full Edition’ effort you will know why.

They discussed among others, the NUFC v Stoke match and slated Chris Foy for his performance and not sending off Colback. Keith Hackett even said that he should be ‘put out to grass’. The thing is, Foy was supposed to take the game , but due to a family bereavement was replaced by…..wait for it……..Kevin Friend.
You couldn’t make it up.

http://you-are-the-ref.com/yatr-tv/the-ref-show/
 
Unfortunately, no highlights I've seen have shown the 'lunge' on Graham, so on the one viewing I did have I thought it was quite a strong challenge, perhaps a foul. I don't think the Bradford defender intended on leaving Graham with a bloody face.

It was a ridiculous challenge. There was no intent to play the ball at all. He wasn't even looking at the ball, when he ran into Graham.
 
Yes, I genuinely think I can spot diving most times and I think most football fans can - you must watch games and see diving - its even easier to spot at the match than on TV. I would be very happy if the FA came out and said we will book every time you dive and we will get it wrong now and again but its not the refs fault its the cheating players. I remember one World Cup when Germany got 2 players booked for diving in the early rounds. Germany then stopped diving - their manager (Low) had clearly told them to stop because he knew he'd lose players. The FA and FIFA have never, ever had a campaign to stop diving and I believe it would not be difficult to drastically reduce.

As for players not taking up reffing I think you are wrong again. I talked to a bloke who reffed up to Conference level and he said it would not be accepted for players to be 'fast tracked' as the referees association believes you have to start at grass roots and 'earn' your promotion through the leagues - so the 16 year olds you see reffing in the Russell Foster league will be the ones progressing through their slow progress up the leagues - these are the young lads who have never played football. I think if the FA and Refs Association put out a call for ex- players or players who had fallen out the league or not quite made the grade they would get inundated and we would get people into referring who understood far better the game than the current bunch.

I'm afraid you come across as an apologist for a bunch of very well paid incompetents. You haven't refed in the past, have you?

No not refed in the past but played all my life and still playing Over 40s.

I am not a apologist but see what is soo clearly in front of me,which is it is simply too hard for the human eye to get these decisions right with one look and split second to decide.

The evidence is overwhelming that it is too difficult for the human eye whoever that human is whether ex-player or not,I firmly believe ex-players would make the same mistakes,as these mistakes are inevitable IMO and the only way to get more decisions right is to introduce technology but that is a different debate altogether.

Aye, cricket... Where they were so concerned about umpiring decisions they introduced referrals and video technology...

Exactly mate they had the sense to realise it was too difficult for the human eye,so gave umpires help,football should follow suit.

I do think the linesmen get away with a lack of criticism

I actually think you are right there mind,linesman makes a mistake but ref gets the blame.
 
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