For all those dead against more lockdowns

[noodles]

Tbh I think lockdown was pretty much a one off. Everyone came together during it and 99% of people took it seriously. That won’t happen again. There’s far too much disillusionment after Cummings and general mismanagement, fatigue at the prospect of another lockdown and creeping conspiracy views meaning a notable minority of the population either don’t believe the virus exists or think it’s just flu.

Any future lockdowns will be nowhere near as successful as the first.

I’m in agreement on the Cummings thing but if pubs, restaurants, shops, transport, leisure facilities etc are all forced to close then how can it not be successful ?
Where are all the “I’m not having it” rule breakers going to break the rules ? It’s gonna be too cold for garden parties soon and if you’re stupid enough to start holding indoor parties during flu season in the middle of a pandemic then there might be a posthumous Darwin Award waiting for ya.

 

[Hansel]

The authorities can't win on this one. If they introduce restrictions because of rising cases and it's effective then people will say why did we have to have the restrictions because deaths didn't increase much. If they don't and cases and deaths increase significantly they will be lambasted for not taking action.

 

[Lo Ursem]

Bolton has 2 Covid patients in hospital and is in lockdown ?!?

And ... were those patients tested positive when they were admitted .. admitted for a routine operation or emergency treatment and without any symptoms.
As for the spike in infections that can be explained by more tests and the young, not at risk members of the population taking advantage of the previous lockdown lifting.
I doubt if we will have a second wave.
The dubious stats that are used may suggest otherwise.
Stats or no stats I expect the death rate to flatline and be a tiny percentage of the numbers in summer.

 

[Porters right boot]

The authorities can't win on this one. If they introduce restrictions because of rising cases and it's effective then people will say why did we have to have the restrictions because deaths didn't increase much. If they don't and cases and deaths increase significantly they will be lambasted for not taking action.

No matter what the authorities do some people will not be happy...the reason because it’s the Torres..some people whinging because they can’t see family....whinging because we aren’t locking down...whinging because They want money for being in lockdown...What’s more important to some people ...Money or their life????
The lockdown in the North East....isnt Boris initiated...The councils asked the government for help to stop the rising number of cases...but they arnt coming in for stick...All these wingers need to start taking responsibility for their action and decide What they want for themselves instead of blaming everyone else

 

[Locke's SAFC]

I can understand people's frustrations regarding the restrictions but there's obviously something in the data that suggests implementing something now is needed to head-off what we saw earlier in the year. Acting when cases have reached the levels we saw then is too late as the hospitals will become stretched again.

That's what it comes down to, mate. Once it's flying around all over the place then you just can't rein it in. How do you keep the elderly locked up in rooms in care homes frightened to death? What about the disabled who need care workers to visit them? People visiting hospital for completely unrelated reasons and picking it up there. And then you have care workers who can't go to work because they're waiting on a test or a result or they're positive. And then the system can't cope with the amount of people wanting a test or being admitted to hospital. And then there are the social costs: grass roots football, cricket and rugby and other things that depend on events and community participation to survive.

This virus has the capacity to cripple lives, the economy and people's leisure pursuits that keep them happy. So, when the virus R rate is above 1, which broadly means rapidly spreading, can you blame anyone for saying better to take harsh measures now than wait until it's too late.

No matter what the authorities do some people will not be happy...the reason because it’s the Torres..some people whinging because they can’t see family....whinging because we aren’t locking down...whinging because They want money for being in lockdown...What’s more important to some people ...Money or their life????
The lockdown in the North East....isnt Boris initiated...The councils asked the government for help to stop the rising number of cases...but they arnt coming in for stick...All these wingers need to start taking responsibility for their action and decide What they want for themselves instead of blaming everyone else

I've just had a pint in a beer garden on the outskirts of Durham. A pretty affluent area. Some of the customers are playing hell with the landlord because he's going by the rules of 6. According to the customers why should they have to put up with that when they were in a pizza place last night and they could do what they want, sit where they want and with whomever they want. These are some of the absolute dickheads that people who are trying to keep people safe have to put up with.

 

[Jap Stammer]

I've just had a pint in a beer garden on the outskirts of Durham. A pretty affluent area. Some of the customers are playing hell with the landlord because he's going by the rules of 6. According to the customers why should they have to put up with that when they were in a pizza place last night and they could do what they want, sit where they want and with whomever they want. These are some of the absolute dickheads that people who are trying to keep people safe have to put up with.

I thought the 'rule of 6' had been superceded by the new lockdown regulations?

 

[Chalks]

I’m in agreement on the Cummings thing but if pubs, restaurants, shops, transport, leisure facilities etc are all forced to close then how can it not be successful ?
Where are all the “I’m not having it” rule breakers going to break the rules ? It’s gonna be too cold for garden parties soon and if you’re stupid enough to start holding indoor parties during flu season in the middle of a pandemic then there might be a posthumous Darwin Award waiting for ya.

Nobody ever has said I’m not going round mates house incase I get flu.

 

[The Master]

What flattened Sweden's covid deaths curve?

It's perfectly logical to look at the graphs of our covid deaths and see that the curve started to flatten shortly after lockdown was imposed, and then assume that lockdown was the reason for this. But Sweden's graph took an almost identical downturn with no lockdown. This strongly suggests that our curve would have flattened without full lockdown.

https://imgur.com/0oDbgq1

Yet they also seen far more deaths than other similar countries that enforced a lockdown.

So yes, Our cases may have flattened (although it’s not as certain as you’re making it out) but we would have had far more deaths than without a lockdown.

I am honestly amazed people are still using Sweden as an example of what we should have done, it’s frankly moronic.
How come the USA hasn’t achieved herd immunity considering how rampant it is over there with hardly any measures to prevent it?

Is it possible that just looking at Sweden and coming to the conclusion of herd immunity has been “achieved” a bit premature?

 

[squavers]

Yet they also seen far more deaths than other similar countries that enforced a lockdown.

So yes, Our cases may have flattened (although it’s not as certain as you’re making it out) but we would have had far more deaths than without a lockdown.

I am honestly amazed people are still using Sweden as an example of what we should have done, it’s frankly moronic.
How come the USA hasn’t achieved herd immunity considering how rampant it is over there with hardly any measures to prevent it?

Is it possible that just looking at Sweden and coming to the conclusion of herd immunity has been “achieved” a bit premature?

The fact that Sweden have had far more deaths-per-capita than their Scandinavian neighbours has been well documented, but approx 75% of Sweden's covid-19 deaths were of people in care homes (50%) or receiving homecare help (25%) (Sweden has acknowledged that serious mistakes were made in the early stages of the pandemic in protecting these most vulnerable people). It's highly unlikely that many, if any, of these people would have been walking around outside, going shopping or visiting pubs and restaurants, so a full lockdown wouldn't have prevented these deaths.

The death count is irrelevant to my questions anyway. I'm not stating that Sweden's approach was the right way, or that the UK shouldn't have locked down (without the use of hindsight it was most certainly the correct thing to do), I'm simply asking how they are at their current situation despite having few restrictions on their lockdown. How has the virus stopped killing people in Sweden and why is it seemingly not only not spreading but actually dwindling away, while at the same time we are seeing a rapid rise of cases all over Europe in the countries that did lock down fully (including their Scandinavian neighbours)?

If you do insist that the death count is relevant then that makes the situation in Sweden all the more remarkable for them to turn things around so dramatically without having to shut down the whole country.

I don't think anyone is 'coming to the conclusion that Sweden has achieved herd immunity' as antibody surveys suggest only about 20 per cent of people in Stockholm have been infected, similar to levels in London and New York.

 

[Nukehasslefan]

You have to be especially sheltered from reality to think that only now in 2020 are politicians and buisness owners living a predatory existence

If I was thinking that then fair enough.....but.....

 

[Ham and cheese]

.

 

[Spennymackem1981]

im not a massive f***ing fanny so i say crack on and let us get back to normal we all gonna Die at some point anyway

 

[The Master]

The fact that Sweden have had far more deaths-per-capita than their Scandinavian neighbours has been well documented, but approx 75% of Sweden's covid-19 deaths were of people in care homes (50%) or receiving homecare help (25%) (Sweden has acknowledged that serious mistakes were made in the early stages of the pandemic in protecting these most vulnerable people). It's highly unlikely that many, if any, of these people would have been walking around outside, going shopping or visiting pubs and restaurants, so a full lockdown wouldn't have prevented these deaths.

The death count is irrelevant to my questions anyway. I'm not stating that Sweden's approach was the right way, or that the UK shouldn't have locked down (without the use of hindsight it was most certainly the correct thing to do), I'm simply asking how they are at their current situation despite having few restrictions on their lockdown. How has the virus stopped killing people in Sweden and why is it seemingly not only not spreading but actually dwindling away, while at the same time we are seeing a rapid rise of cases all over Europe in the countries that did lock down fully (including their Scandinavian neighbours)?

If you do insist that the death count is relevant then that makes the situation in Sweden all the more remarkable for them to turn things around so dramatically without having to shut down the whole country.

I don't think anyone is 'coming to the conclusion that Sweden has achieved herd immunity' as antibody surveys suggest only about 20 per cent of people in Stockholm have been infected, similar to levels in London and New York.

It’s far far too early to say the virus is “dwindling away” in Sweden. You could have said the same of us when our cases were about 500ish ever day.

Lets wait and see before we jump to the conclusion that their cases have stabilised.

Sweden did have restrictions just not as strict which could explain why their cases eventually stabilised but also why they have so many more deaths. If you think the increased deaths is worth it to have less restrictions then we’ll agree to disagree.

New Zealand also have had massive success (with far less deaths than Sweden) by imposing an early strict lockdown, why are the same people praising Sweden and saying that approach was the best not doing the same with New Zealand?

 

[lurker]

For balance , We now also understand the virus more than March, triage is better treating and outcomes are improved .

The hospital infrastructure is better with the pop up nightingale hospitals that where never even needed in the first instance.

A certain percentage of the UK have had this now and looks like they can’t get it again or spread it on etc as we slowly move towards herd immunity

Still no evidence you can’t catch it twice. And only a small percentage of the population have had it

 

[squavers]

It’s far far too early to say the virus is “dwindling away” in Sweden. You could have said the same of us when our cases were about 500ish ever day.

Lets wait and see before we jump to the conclusion that their cases have stabilised.

Sweden did have restrictions just not as strict which could explain why their cases eventually stabilised but also why they have so many more deaths. If you think the increased deaths is worth it to have less restrictions then we’ll agree to disagree.

New Zealand also have had massive success (with far less deaths than Sweden) by imposing an early strict lockdown, why are the same people praising Sweden and saying that approach was the best not doing the same with New Zealand?

Well the definition of the word 'dwindling' is "gradually diminishing in size, amount, or strength" which is exactly what has happened in Sweden, the 7-day moving average of deaths was in the 90's at it's peak but it's been no higher than 3 for the past 7 weeks. They had just 1 death in the 5 days between the 13th and 17th of this month. Yes it may well rise again but as for now the virus is definitely dwindling.

Out of a population of over 10 million, there are currently just 15 covid-19 patients said to be in serious or critical condition. For a country who had things incredibly badly in the early months of the pandemic and had such a relaxed lockdown, that's incredible. And that's the question that I still haven't had answered, or even any kind of logical explanation offered to.

Sweden did have restrictions just not as strict which could explain why their cases eventually stabilised...

Well it could explain it, but then that would totally contradict what is now happening in the countries that did have a full lockdown. That's the question I'm asking. If a strict lockdown was so crucial and effective, how has a country that had no lockdown recovered so well while the countries who did lock down are now looking in trouble again? Why are Sweden not top of the deaths-per-capita charts? If wearing face coverings is so effective, how have our cases started to rise rapidly while in Sweden they are in freefall (a poll reveals only 6% of Swedes wore face masks)?

If you think the increased deaths is worth it to have less restrictions then we’ll agree to disagree.

I've never said that at all. I've already stated that I believe we were correct to lockdown, and from a selfish point of view I'm glad we weren't used as guinea pigs like the Swedes were, but I will say though that throughout the world there will almost certainly be more deaths from things caused by covid rather than from covid itself (delayed treatment, cancelled operations, suicide etc) so why is it okay to accept these deaths but not those caused by a relaxed lockdown? There's no satisfactory answer to this really.

 

[The Master]

Well the definition of the word 'dwindling' is "gradually diminishing in size, amount, or strength" which is exactly what has happened in Sweden, the 7-day moving average of deaths was in the 90's at it's peak but it's been no higher than 3 for the past 7 weeks. They had just 1 death in the 5 days between the 13th and 17th of this month. Yes it may well rise again but as for now the virus is definitely dwindling.

Out of a population of over 10 million, there are currently just 15 covid-19 patients said to be in serious or critical condition. For a country who had things incredibly badly in the early months of the pandemic and had such a relaxed lockdown, that's incredible. And that's the question that I still haven't had answered, or even any kind of logical explanation offered to.



Well it could explain it, but then that would totally contradict what is now happening in the countries that did have a full lockdown. That's the question I'm asking. If a strict lockdown was so crucial and effective, how has a country that had no lockdown recovered so well while the countries who did lock down are now looking in trouble again? Why are Sweden not top of the deaths-per-capita charts? If wearing face coverings is so effective, how have our cases started to rise rapidly while in Sweden they are in freefall (a poll reveals only 6% of Swedes wore face masks)?



I've never said that at all. I've already stated that I believe we were correct to lockdown, and from a selfish point of view I'm glad we weren't used as guinea pigs like the Swedes were, but I will say though that throughout the world there will almost certainly be more deaths from things caused by covid rather than from covid itself (delayed treatment, cancelled operations, suicide etc) so why is it okay to accept these deaths but not those caused by a relaxed lockdown? There's no satisfactory answer to this really.

I'll ask again, why is New Zealand not being mentioned in this? They have 74 active cases, 4 in the last day, 25 deaths overall and only 3 cases in hospital.

They haven't had the spike currently being seen in other countries. Do we know the reason for this?

People compare ourselves and Sweden, then come to the conclusion that it must be because Sweden had lesser restrictions than us the reason why they are not seeing the current spike. You can't make that conclusion with New Zealand as they had a strict early lockdown.

If New Zealand and Sweden have both came to the same end result (next to no deaths and not many new infections), surely New Zealand's method is the gold standard as they also had hardly any deaths during the initial spike?

 

[Harry Angstrom]

To defeat the virus completely.

How?

 

[dangermows]

We keep getting told to wake up by the enlightened ones. Right, so what happens differently when we do wake up? I presume those already awake can still have a pint after 10pm in pubs?

 

[Deleted member 32773]

I reckon most who twist on about restrictions or damage to the econemy are the type of person who doesn't give a fuck in all honesty. The whole thing is a load of shite and the only thing that would change that stance was if a family member died or they got it and it caused longer term problems. A huge % of people now just worry about themselves, that isn't really a problem most the time but when shit hits the fan it hinders everyone in some shape or form.


Spot on marra, I don't blame anyone for clinging to hope that herd immunity might get us out of this mess at some stage but to say crack on in the hope it will occur seems mental to me.

I reckon most who twist on about restrictions or damage to the econemy are the type of person who doesn't give a fuck in all honesty. The whole thing is a load of shite and the only thing that would change that stance was if a family member died or they got it and it caused longer term problems. A huge % of people now just worry about themselves, that isn't really a problem most the time but when shit hits the fan it hinders everyone in some shape or form.


Spot on marra, I don't blame anyone for clinging to hope that herd immunity might get us out of this mess at some stage but to say crack on in the hope it will occur seems mental to me.

In my experience people begging to be locked down don't seem to give a shit about any of the unintended consequences of doing so. It's like they can't bring themselves to acknowledge the misery and deaths they cause, as, as soon as they do acknowledge that, such a position doesnt seem so 'virtuous'. Most people I know are bothered about all deaths caused by Covid and lockdowns and the impact on our kids and suicide and relatives treatment for other diseases etc etc. If you dare question 'lockdowns' your accused of not caring and "how would you feel if one of your relatives got it?" " I hope you dont get it" "what would you say to the relative of some one who died of it?" if anyone says that shite you can tell they only want to appear as if they care more

 

[Porters right boot]

Didn’t NZ lockdown very quickly at the start...closed their borders which is probably quite easy to do..they seemed to imp let emend track and trace for those that did enter the country because I remember a couple of brits were allowed into the country on compassionate reasons an& they both had th3 virus,they were tracked down and isolayed immediately,didnt they miss the funeral that they had been allowed in for....im not sure if their borders are open yet....think their inhabitants have more respect for their country than some of the inhabitants of the UK