F1 2023


One of their suppliers has really missed a marketing trick - "Nescafe - the coffee that Nukes your opposition" or "Pukka Pies - putting you on top of the podium"
I really don’t understand your point - we agree that they overspent by £1.8m right? What exactly are you questioning in my post?
 
I really don’t understand your point - we agree that they overspent by £1.8m right? What exactly are you questioning in my post?

I wasn't questioning it at all, maybe 1.6% of budget that they couldn't spend if they had accounted correctly for the catering on the F1 team and the engine manufacturer and the entire company would have been 100% spent on R&D, who knows - you want to clarify they only spend £8m on R&D and 1.6% of their overall budget equals 25% of their R&D budget then feel free, not that there is any evidence or accusation to back that up, just big bunches of sour grapes. They were punished but are still winning - therefore to you the punishment was too small. Maybe when Hamilton's che...er error yesterday was also adjudged to be wrong he should have been black flagged as he still finished ahead of the car he took out? Maybe the entire catering costs of Mercedes worldwide should be included too if we're trying to include everything that contributes to a car- that would make them the biggest cheats in the history of sport. It's so easy to become a flat earther - secret message to Perez to miss Apexes, a gas being secretly sprayed in the pits to slow the pit crew down when Perez is going in, etc etc. Where do you stop? Maybe Verstappen is an alien?
 
I wasn't questioning it at all, maybe 1.6% of budget that they couldn't spend if they had accounted correctly for the catering on the F1 team and the engine manufacturer and the entire company would have been 100% spent on R&D, who knows - you want to clarify they only spend £8m on R&D and 1.6% of their overall budget equals 25% of their R&D budget then feel free, not that there is any evidence or accusation to back that up, just big bunches of sour grapes. They were punished but are still winning - therefore to you the punishment was too small. Maybe when Hamilton's che...er error yesterday was also adjudged to be wrong he should have been black flagged as he still finished ahead of the car he took out? Maybe the entire catering costs of Mercedes worldwide should be included too if we're trying to include everything that contributes to a car- that would make them the biggest cheats in the history of sport. It's so easy to become a flat earther - secret message to Perez to miss Apexes, a gas being secretly sprayed in the pits to slow the pit crew down when Perez is going in, etc etc. Where do you stop? Maybe Verstappen is an alien?
I don’t think you have an understanding of how budgets work. The £8m figure was the average R&D spend of the 6 teams that made their submissions public, which you are free to check yourself at any point, and is a reasonable estimate that the other 4 will be similar.

Just because they spent money on catering, so did all the other teams too, doesn’t mean that the overspend was due to that. That’s just the PR now RB attached to the episode. Fact is that R&D is the area you would spend more in if you had more money, therefore is the area you would spend less in if you had less money, by extension.

If you gave Mercedes £2m now, where would they spend that? Pancakes? Increasing staff bonuses? Or R&D and car improvement?

Fact is that if RB spent the £1.8m less that season, it would have come from their R&D budget almost exclusively. And comparing £1.8m to an estimate of £8m annual R&D spend is something like 20% additional development compared to other teams.

Whatever way you look at it, it’s offered RB a very significant advantage - how can 20% more development not? And this advantage is being carried through to this season and probably next season. And no real punishment was issued.

Feel free to continue with whatever gullible narrative you want to push, but if you really believe the catering narrative they spun then there is no debating with you
 
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What on Earth is the “last lap Hamilton”?

God that idiot talks total crap at times
He's been doing it for years and it's irritating af. Yet he still remains in a job because he talk to the audience like they are 12yrs old, mixed in with a few puns...

He's so successful that SKY have introduced the F1 juniors who do the same thing/style of commentery headed up by the mixed race lad with funky hair. He absolutely talks to the kids target audience..

Murray Walker was irreplacable. Two commentators, that's all you need.
 
I don’t think you have an understanding of how budgets work. The £8m figure was the average R&D spend of the 6 teams that made their submissions public, which you are free to check yourself at any point, and is a reasonable estimate that the other 4 will be similar.

Just because they spent money on catering, so did all the other teams too, doesn’t mean that the overspend was due to that. That’s just the PR now RB attached to the episode. Fact is that R&D is the area you would spend more in if you had more money, therefore is the area you would spend less in if you had less money, by extension.

If you gave Mercedes £2m now, where would they spend that? Pancakes? Increasing staff bonuses? Or R&D and car improvement?

Fact is that if RB spent the £1.8m less that season, it would have come from their R&D budget almost exclusively. And comparing £1.8m to an estimate of £8m annual R&D spend is something like 20% additional development compared to other teams.

Whatever way you look at it, it’s offered RB a very significant advantage - how can 20% more development not? And this advantage is being carried through to this season and probably next season. And no real punishment was issued.

Feel free to continue with whatever gullible narrative you want to push, but if you really believe the catering narrative they spun then there is no debating with you
Also the changes of the rules last year massively favoured RedBull and the way their car worked.
 
I don’t think you have an understanding of how budgets work. The £8m figure was the average R&D spend of the 6 teams that made their submissions public, which you are free to check yourself at any point, and is a reasonable estimate that the other 4 will be similar.

Just because they spent money on catering, so did all the other teams too, doesn’t mean that the overspend was due to that. That’s just the PR now RB attached to the episode. Fact is that R&D is the area you would spend more in if you had more money, therefore is the area you would spend less in if you had less money, by extension.

If you gave Mercedes £2m now, where would they spend that? Pancakes? Increasing staff bonuses? Or R&D and car improvement?

Fact is that if RB spent the £1.8m less that season, it would have come from their R&D budget almost exclusively. And comparing £1.8m to an estimate of £8m annual R&D spend is something like 20% additional development compared to other teams.

Whatever way you look at it, it’s offered RB a very significant advantage - how can 20% more development not? And this advantage is being carried through to this season and probably next season. And no real punishment was issued.

Feel free to continue with whatever gullible narrative you want to push, but if you really believe the catering narrative they spun then there is no debating with you

"Fact is that if RB spent the £1.8m less that season, it would have come from their R&D budget almost exclusively. And comparing £1.8m to an estimate of £8m annual R&D spend is something like 20% additional development compared to other teams."

That's an assumption, and a poor one given the money had been spent already in areas they weren't even tallying up as part of the F1 team. There is no evidence to support this. If we could go back in time and tell RB to cut 1.8 million they would not cut it from their R&D. The difference between RB and Mercedes structures means that RB are adjudged to carry absolutely all costs, but as a car manufacturer there is no sensible equivalent for Mercedes. RB changed that and were punished for the previous breach, the notion that this explains in any large part their current dominance (in seasons where other teams have made huge errors with design or team management) is no more than that - a notion.

Rule break - punishment - life goes. It would be better for your blood pressure if you accepted that cycle and that the your team is just no longer the alpha (or beta) anymore.
Also the changes of the rules last year massively favoured RedBull and the way their car worked.

??? the rules announced before any of the cars were developed? Well done RB, and no one told Mercedes to go down a different path than every other team, once they received these rules.
 
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"Fact is that if RB spent the £1.8m less that season, it would have come from their R&D budget almost exclusively. And comparing £1.8m to an estimate of £8m annual R&D spend is something like 20% additional development compared to other teams."

That's an assumption, and a poor one given the money had been spent already in areas they weren't even tallying up as part of the F1 team. There is no evidence to support this. If we could go back in time and tell RB to cut 1.8 million they would not cut it from their R&D. The difference between RB and Mercedes structures means that RB are adjudged to carry absolutely all costs, but as a car manufacturer there is no sensible equivalent for Mercedes. RB changed that and were punished for the previous breach, the notion that this explains in any large part their current dominance (in seasons where other teams have made huge errors with design or team management) is no more than that - a notion.

Rule break - punishment - life goes. It would be better for your blood pressure if you accepted that cycle and that the your team is just no longer the alpha (or beta) anymore.


??? the rules announced before any of the cars were developed? Well done RB, and no one told Mercedes to go down a different path than every other team, once they received these rules.
Erm? Not just Mercedes. All the other manufacturers struggled. The changes to the rules massively favoured RedBull and their philosophy. This gave them an advantage which they seized on. Oh then cheated on spending.
 
I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Checo’s last race for RB. However, they’d probably keep him as he’s the perfect number 2 driver.
 
Norris with his best drive of the season imo. Fucked steering, fucked set up, and fucked pit stops. Looked early on like he would finish last given the ease cars just blasted by him on the straight.
 
I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Checo’s last race for RB. However, they’d probably keep him as he’s the perfect number 2 driver.
The perfect number 2 driver for the best team on the grid doesn’t struggle to get out of Q1 in half the races. He’s lucky no one else can get near the RB otherwise he would be in danger.
 
"Fact is that if RB spent the £1.8m less that season, it would have come from their R&D budget almost exclusively. And comparing £1.8m to an estimate of £8m annual R&D spend is something like 20% additional development compared to other teams."

That's an assumption, and a poor one given the money had been spent already in areas they weren't even tallying up as part of the F1 team. There is no evidence to support this. If we could go back in time and tell RB to cut 1.8 million they would not cut it from their R&D. The difference between RB and Mercedes structures means that RB are adjudged to carry absolutely all costs, but as a car manufacturer there is no sensible equivalent for Mercedes. RB changed that and were punished for the previous breach, the notion that this explains in any large part their current dominance (in seasons where other teams have made huge errors with design or team management) is no more than that - a notion.

Rule break - punishment - life goes. It would be better for your blood pressure if you accepted that cycle and that the your team is just no longer the alpha (or beta) anymore.


??? the rules announced before any of the cars were developed? Well done RB, and no one told Mercedes to go down a different path than every other team, once they received these rules.
If they were capable of cutting costs from areas such as catering, staffing, utilities, building costs, etc, then they undoubtedly would have anyway, as all top organisations have this under control (and if they don’t, that’s their failing), so what exactly would they have cut this £1.8m from if not directly from car development?

Or to answer my other point, if you gave each team an extra £2m for this season, what would they spend it on?

It’s so much more than a notion, and you are very well aware of that too, hence the patronising nature of the later half of your post towards Mercedes fans. And a 10% aero deduction is not a punishment at all. The FIA are and have been for a long time very poor at handling the teams and this is just yet another example.

If Red Bull were capable of winning fairly, I’d sit here and praise their efforts as much as anyone, and ask questions of the other teams, but it’s a fact that Red Bull have gained a substantial advantage in this series of regulations. We obviously can’t know how much of an advantage, and that discussion is subjective, but it is a significant factor in their ongoing dominance, which is what does not sit well with a lot of F1 fans at present.
Erm? Not just Mercedes. All the other manufacturers struggled. The changes to the rules massively favoured RedBull and their philosophy. This gave them an advantage which they seized on. Oh then cheated on spending.
And the 2021 rule changes which benefit RB no end, yet Max still couldn’t beat Lewis without Masis intervention
There's been 12/13 races, Redbull won every single race
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mercedes wasn't this dominate back in the days.
I don’t even recall any of the races being competitive past about lap 5. Today you knew Max would be allowed past Checo as soon as he overtook Charles, so again was over after 5-10 laps
 
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Missed the race - was having a BBQ with the family.

Just watched the Sky highlights - 50mins long, so not too bad. Its not the same, though.

Man, that was boring wasn't it? Inevitable watching Max move back to the font. Perez 20s behind despite starting 5 or so places further ahead. Its shocking really.
Apart from that, just about nothing happened.

Nowt else to say - missed the last 10 pages of the thread, but I can see an argument about Red Bull's overspend last year. If you are trying to argue that if they hadn't spent to much money and stayed in the cap, they wouldn't have lost any car performance - you're deluded. Every bean counter at an F1 team is trying to cut every single cost so that as much money as possible is routed to the R&D of the car. Its "sportswashing" of red bull to try to confuse people by claiming an overspend on sandwiches, or whatever is was. They're just trying to get people off the scent - which amazingly some have fallen for.

Anyway, summer break. I think I need it. Becuase this has been pants.
 
Apart from that, just about nothing happened.
There was some good action with the williams and alpine cars going through in the midfield, decent car to car action… and the double over take of Norris… but, and I’m repeating myself here… if it’s not for 1st place it’s really for nothing in the memory.

No one remembers coming second…
 
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There was some good action with the williams and alpine cars going through in the midfield, decent car to car action… and the double over take of Norris… but, and I’m repeating myself here… if it’s not for 1st place it’s really for nothing in the memory.

No one remembers coming second…
Especially since, with the way the cost caps and development time function, it’s arguably better for teams to finish as low as possible (provided they don’t win of course), to maximise wind tunnel time, etc., for next season. So some part of these teams must be conflicted about their want to finish as high as possible against their want to compete next season
 
If they were capable of cutting costs from areas such as catering, staffing, utilities, building costs, etc, then they undoubtedly would have anyway, as all top organisations have this under control (and if they don’t, that’s their failing), so what exactly would they have cut this £1.8m from if not directly from car development?

Or to answer my other point, if you gave each team an extra £2m for this season, what would they spend it on?

It’s so much more than a notion, and you are very well aware of that too, hence the patronising nature of the later half of your post towards Mercedes fans. And a 10% aero deduction is not a punishment at all. The FIA are and have been for a long time very poor at handling the teams and this is just yet another example.

If Red Bull were capable of winning fairly, I’d sit here and praise their efforts as much as anyone, and ask questions of the other teams, but it’s a fact that Red Bull have gained a substantial advantage in this series of regulations. We obviously can’t know how much of an advantage, and that discussion is subjective, but it is a significant factor in their ongoing dominance, which is what does not sit well with a lot of F1 fans at present.

And the 2021 rule changes which benefit RB no end, yet Max still couldn’t beat Lewis without Masis intervention

I don’t even recall any of the races being competitive past about lap 5. Today you knew Max would be allowed past Checo as soon as he overtook Charles, so again was over after 5-10 laps

The simple fact is that a huge expensive setup overspent by 1.6% on a cap that as F1 accepted was not perfectly defined and required interpretation, and a rewrite of the rules to address it. You could argue all day about how they would have reduced spending had they known they needed to, no one can state it as a fact where and how that would have been achieved no matter how much you want to, the obvious thing for them to do would be to cut it from anywhere but their R&D budget, less catering, less marketing, cheaper travel, whatever there are obviously ways. I was on a Ryanair flight with a great bunch of Williams staff mostly pit crew- previously they had been on chartered flights, but to address costs they were now flying - their words 'cattle class' and it was saving Williams a fortune. So again, no matter how much you want it to be the case, there are always ways to reduce costs when you have to, despite your notion of everything being already to the bone..

Anyway, it was determined that RB breached the cap and were punished - whether you think the punishment appropriate is back to your conspiracy theories of which you have plenty (secret switches in Perez car perhasp for special 'slow laps'?), but it was an R&D specific punishment which again no one can know how much or little damage it has done to their performance and their actual performance this season may or may not have been affected - by an unknown amount - these are not tangibles - especially when the team already has the best cars and driver (again no matter how much you resent it as it isn't 'your team' as evidenced by continuing to dispute one result like it was an entire season). Your conspiracy notions built on this are akin to flat earthers.

F1 history is littered with teams testing the edge of rules and going beyond them, they get punished and rules are tightened up, how odd you aren't dredging all these up and adding an asterisk, ultimately all that matters to you is the 'conspiracy against Hamilton'. Like any conspiracy theorist facts can't change your mind any more than you can change the history records, so we'll just have to leave it at that.
 

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