Employment law help

[wasnotwas]

Is a false accusation of fraud enough for a constructive dismissal case?

Take legal advice.

If the accusation can be shown to be false, you've good grounds on appeal or at industrial tribunal.

But you've got to have proof. If a firm want you out, they'll find a way believe me.

Have you a diary of events (more useful in harassment cases) or a witness to your version of events?

Witnesses can be hard to come by as people will obviously want to keep their own jobs, so you'd need probably someone who's left the company.

Unions will do a bare minimum unless the case is solid.

 

[Pseudonym Number 1]

Take legal advice.

If the accusation can be shown to be false, you've good grounds on appeal or at industrial tribunal.

But you've got to have proof. If a firm want you out, they'll find a way believe me.

Have you a diary of events (more useful in harassment cases) or a witness to your version of events?

Witnesses can be hard to come by as people will obviously want to keep their own jobs, so you'd need probably someone who's left the company.

Unions will do a bare minimum unless the case is solid.

Honestly think it's sabre rattling. The line manager has beef with the employee going back years. As said no witness it was one on one behind closed doors.

Doubt the manager has thought this through, bit of a bully and probably expects the employee to just go along with it without saying anything.

 

[wasnotwas]

I'm a little concerned the senior manager could "generate" necessary evidence here.

 

[gretzky]

Would definitely look to seek legal advice, no investigation carried out, no due process followed. Was the so-called hearing even recorded?

For any disciplinary hearing there should to be an investigation meeting carried out first, usually by the direct line manager, then a letter needs to be issued advising of a disciplinary hearing, which is usually chaired by someone not involved in the investigation meeting, and usually at least a week from the date of the letter.
It seems that no proper process has been followed at all.

 

[Pseudonym Number 1]

I'm a little concerned the senior manager could "generate" necessary evidence here.

It is a concern, although I'm not sure he could. He does have a lot of influence over the man at the top though.

 

[The Breen Machine]

For any disciplinary hearing there should to be an investigation meeting carried out first, usually by the direct line manager, then a letter needs to be issued advising of a disciplinary hearing, which is usually chaired by someone not involved in the investigation meeting, and usually at least a week from the date of the letter.
It seems that no proper process has been followed at all.

Absolutely this, and the employee has the right to representation. I work in HR, judging by the above, so does Gretzky! - but all disciplinaries should follow the above process.

 

[Pseudonym Number 1]

For any disciplinary hearing there should to be an investigation meeting carried out first, usually by the direct line manager, then a letter needs to be issued advising of a disciplinary hearing, which is usually chaired by someone not involved in the investigation meeting, and usually at least a week from the date of the letter.
It seems that no proper process has been followed at all.

It wasn't a disciplinary it was a general chat that had a sinister ending with accusations made then a verbal this will be your punishment

 

[kossoff]

Would definitely look to seek legal advice, no investigation carried out, no due process followed. Was the so-called hearing even recorded?

Also was the employee given the opportunity to bring a companion into the meeting?

 

[wasnotwas]

Honestly think it's sabre rattling. The line manager has beef with the employee going back years. As said no witness it was one on one behind closed doors.

Doubt the manager has thought this through, bit of a bully and probably expects the employee to just go along with it without saying anything.

Did employee offer notice before or after accusation?

If after and no proof of fraud, then the sequence of events could be construed as constructive dismissal.

The bullying could also be construed as harassment, noting my diary comments above as evidence.

If the situation is really bad, could the employee offer to leave in exchange for a decent reference, giving all parties a face saving way out?

From what you say, they want rid of this employee regardless and a face-saving exit is probably best if possible.

A companion is needed for the meeting who knows the law and due process is needed if the employee is going to fight this.

 

[kossoff]

It wasn't a disciplinary it was a general chat that had a sinister ending with accusations made then a verbal this will be your punishment

What punishment was proposed?

 

[pillars of hercules]

Didn’t know Jimmy Carr was a MLF?

That's Alan Carr iirc

 

[Pseudonym Number 1]

Also was the employee given the opportunity to bring a companion into the meeting?

Nope, informal pop in I've got some work I want you to do for me, then it escalated.

 

[kossoff]

Nope, informal pop in I've got some work I want you to do for me, then it escalated.

To... ?

 

[Pseudonym Number 1]

Did employee offer notice before or after accusation?

If after and no proof of fraud, then the sequence of events could be construed as constructive dismissal.

The bullying could also be construed as harassment, noting my diary comments above as evidence.

If the situation is really bad, could the employee offer to leave in exchange for a decent reference, giving all parties a face saving way out?

From what you say, they want rid of this employee regardless and a face-saving exit is probably best if possible.

After accusations saying trust is gone and doesn't see how they can work in that situation any longer.

What punishment was proposed?

A removal of working privileges.

 

[wasnotwas]

After accusations saying trust is gone and doesn't see how they can work in that situation any longer.

Then the employee needs to ensure they leave with a reference if offering to go.

A knowledgable companion is needed for the meeting.

 

[Pseudonym Number 1]

To... ?

Like I said, senior has told me that you've done this so I'm going to do that. Employee then said can't work here due to accusations breach of trust and feeling bullied and harassed.

 

[wasnotwas]

Like I said, senior has told me that you've done this so I'm going to do that. Employee then said can't work here due to accusations breach of trust and feeling bullied and harassed.

Please see my previous response. This is clearly constructive dismissal you are describing but how to prove it without witnesses.

Leave with reference (knowledgeable rep in meeting) if possible seems the pest way forward.

 

[kossoff]

A removal of working privileges.

Fucked.

 

[ajthemackem]

Constructive dismissal tends to get settled out of court I think. Employers tend to panic if there's legitimate reason, even if there's a supposed lack of evidence; they don't know what you have.

 

[wasnotwas]

Constructive dismissal tends to get settled out of court I think. Employers tend to panic if there's legitimate reason, even if there's a supposed lack of evidence; they don't know what you have.

Fair comment.

That said, employers can also close ranks and pull up "evidence" to destroy the complainants case.

Someone I know of distantly in the university sector knew they didn't have a hope in hell of fighting a harrisment constructive dismissal case as there was no-one to support their version of events. The university concerned tended to fight and usually won such cases - played 6, won 6 while this lad was there. People wanted to keep their jobs.