Death by Dangerous Cycling

[James]

How many of those journeys are ones that couldn’t be done on a bike?

The supermarket might be a mile away, but you can’t cycle back with a family of four’s shopping.

Your parents might be a mile away but you can’t take the bairns to their grandparents on a bike.

Half might be within 2km (1.6mi) but that doesn’t mean they’re cyclable.

You can cycle anywhere on a bike under 2km. I am obviously saying this in the context of segregated and safe cycle routes a la the Netherlands. This is my point, at the minute doing those small trips on a bike just doesn't seem possible to people so they drive (I am not having a go at anyone who does this, blame the system not the people). It's a sad reflection on how we've planned our transport systems. It's such a small distance, hogging around a 2 ton of metal kicking out fumes is so backwards it mental imo.

You can easily cycle back with a family of fours shopping with a cargo bike, no worries at all. If you live that close to a shop (it's a five min cycle at a slow pace) you wouldn't need to do a massive shop in one go anyway. Your alternative should be delivery by cargo bike. Sainsburys have just completed a study on cargo bike delivery and found that 98% of deliveries can be done by bike. Expect that to be rolled out en masse soon in cities.

Your kids can cycle autonomously to their grandparents place with safe routes. They do in the Netherlands. It expands the area they can play around their home as well.

I don't think many people can even comprehend a different reality to the one we're so used to which is half the problem, especially with this being a political issue at the end of the day.

And before someone says it, no, not every trip can or needs to be done by bicycle, I'm not thick. It's about enabling people to cycle short trips when they're currently driving. Reduce a good percentage of those 50% car trips under 2km and you make an enormous improvement to traffic flow, to quality of life, to air quality etc..

 

[nyron4england]

You can cycle anywhere on a bike under 2km. I am obviously saying this in the context of segregated and safe cycle routes a la the Netherlands. This is my point, at the minute doing those small trips on a bike just doesn't seem possible to people so they drive (I am not having a go at anyone who does this, blame the system not the people). It's a sad reflection on how we've planned our transport systems. It's such a small distance, hogging around a 2 ton of metal kicking out fumes is so backwards it mental imo.

You can easily cycle back with a family of fours shopping with a cargo bike, no worries at all. If you live that close to a shop (it's a five min cycle at a slow pace) you wouldn't need to do a massive shop in one go anyway. Your alternative should be delivery by cargo bike. Sainsburys have just completed a study on cargo bike delivery and found that 98% of deliveries can be done by bike. Expect that to be rolled out en masse soon in cities.

Your kids can cycle autonomously to their grandparents place with safe routes. They do in the Netherlands. It expands the area they can play around their home as well.

I don't think many people can even comprehend a different reality to the one we're so used to which is half the problem, especially with this being a political issue at the end of the day.

And before someone says it, no, not every trip can or needs to be done by bicycle, I'm not thick. It's about enabling people to cycle short trips when they're currently driving. Reduce a good percentage of those 50% car trips under 2km and you make an enormous improvement to traffic flow, to quality of life, to air quality etc..

why do you keep wanking off over the netherlands? its a piece of piss cycling around in this country.

ooo look at me, i used to fuck my bike in the netherlands.

its very easy to jump on your bike and ride it. people just make excuses because they're lazy and can't be arsed.

Most people don't live in a city with a good public transport system though, that's a big part of the problem. Decades of motorcentric transport policy has led to public transport being neglected. As was touched upon before, we're basically all inherently lazy, we just want to get from A to B quickest. Unfortunately we've made driving a car the quickest option and that has had tons of negative knock on effects.

More than half of car trips are for journeys under 2km. How miserable is that.

oh, and im pretty sure most people live in a city with decent public transport. considering over 10 mil live in the London metropolitan area alone.

 

[Frijj]

I would imagine a lot of those will be school runs too which also has the negative effect of teaching kids that using cars for every journey is acceptable



Surely if the bairns are old enough then cycling with them is a great opportunity to spend some family time, increase all of the families health, instill a healthier attitude into your kids etc.

If they’re over the age of 10 maybe but younger than that and they’ll be a hazard on the roads and a nightmare to supervise.

You can cycle anywhere on a bike under 2km. I am obviously saying this in the context of segregated and safe cycle routes a la the Netherlands. This is my point, at the minute doing those small trips on a bike just doesn't seem possible to people so they drive (I am not having a go at anyone who does this, blame the system not the people). It's a sad reflection on how we've planned our transport systems. It's such a small distance, hogging around a 2 ton of metal kicking out fumes is so backwards it mental imo.

You can easily cycle back with a family of fours shopping with a cargo bike, no worries at all. If you live that close to a shop (it's a five min cycle at a slow pace) you wouldn't need to do a massive shop in one go anyway. Your alternative should be delivery by cargo bike. Sainsburys have just completed a study on cargo bike delivery and found that 98% of deliveries can be done by bike. Expect that to be rolled out en masse soon in cities.

Your kids can cycle autonomously to their grandparents place with safe routes. They do in the Netherlands. It expands the area they can play around their home as well.

I don't think many people can even comprehend a different reality to the one we're so used to which is half the problem, especially with this being a political issue at the end of the day.

And before someone says it, no, not every trip can or needs to be done by bicycle, I'm not thick. It's about enabling people to cycle short trips when they're currently driving. Reduce a good percentage of those 50% car trips under 2km and you make an enormous improvement to traffic flow, to quality of life, to air quality etc..

Absolutely no way can you cart a week’s worth of shopping for a family on a bike.

I get what you’re saying but it just can’t be done, nor can you get young bairns safety around town on a bike.

 

[James]

If they’re over the age of 10 maybe but younger than that and they’ll be a hazard on the roads and a nightmare to supervise.



Absolutely no way can you cart a week’s worth of shopping for a family on a bike.

I get what you’re saying but it just can’t be done, nor can you get young bairns safety around town on a bike.

I moved flat using a cargo bike, I had two suitcases on it and an ironing board. If your weekly shop is bigger than that then eat less bait.

You can't make those trips now, no, because its not safe to do so. What I'm saying that is with good infrastructure then you can do all of that and more. It seems unrealistic but you don't need to do that much really.

why do you keep wanking off over the netherlands? its a piece of piss cycling around in this country.

ooo look at me, i used to fuck my bike in the netherlands.

its very easy to jump on your bike and ride it. people just make excuses because they're lazy and can't be arsed.


oh, and im pretty sure most people live in a city with decent public transport. considering over 10 mil live in the London metropolitan area alone.

Cycling on the road is terrifying. It's a valid reason. I wouldn't cycle on the road either after returning to the UK, and I'm a young lad and I'm decent shape. You're never going to get less confident people cycling if it puts someone like myself off.

 

[zwartekat]

Plus our cities, with their medieval, Georgian and Victorian street plans on the whole cannot cater for more cycling infrastructure.


He doesn’t do “transport”, he does “cycling”. He has no interest in any other form of transport, including public transport and walking. Unless it has two wheels, it has no virtue for him. I’d hate to think that anyone so monomaniacal about cycling to the exclusion of other forms of moving people about, including by walking and by public transport, is involved in transport planning.

Strange how these debates practically ignore pedestrians despite it being the one mode of moving about common to nearly all of us. I have nothing against cyclists but I still think improving public transport and encouraging it's use should be the main priority.

 

[Deleted member 5265]

Strange how these debates practically ignore pedestrians despite it being the one mode of moving about common to nearly all of us. I have nothing against cyclists but I still think improving public transport and encouraging it's use should be the main priority.

This, this, this.

 

[James]

Strange how these debates practically ignore pedestrians despite it being the one mode of moving about common to nearly all of us. I have nothing against cyclists but I still think improving public transport and encouraging it's use should be the main priority.

All of these things are overlooked in favour of the private car. The debate should be on how much space we have allocated to motor traffic and how everyone else is left to feed on scraps. Public transport is part of that wider debate. Pitting people who want to cycle against people who walk (everyone) is counter productive.

 

[zwartekat]

All of these things are overlooked in favour of the private car. The debate should be on how much space we have allocated to motor traffic and how everyone else is left to feed on scraps. Public transport is part of that wider debate. Pitting people who want to cycle against people who walk (everyone) is counter productive.

It's counterproductive to get too evangelical about any particular mode of transport. However, walking and public transport should underpin any strategy as they're the least likely to be exclusive (not in the posh sense). Integrated public transport has the flexibility to be adaptable across multiple environmental scenarios.

 

[Morse]

What a massive exaggeration to make your point sound credible.

No it isn’t. I don’t need to exaggerate, bikes are not a direct replacement for cars.

I live Houghton way. Let’s say I need to collect a prescription from the doctor’s at Shiney, nip through to B&Q at Washy for some bits and pieces, go to Mos Eisley, sorry, the Galleries, for a bit of shopping...

That’s a fairly typical trip for me. How long do you reckon that’ll take on a bike?
How do I get my shopping home? How do I get my disabled and seriously ill Missus (no) to her doctors’s and hospital appointments?

A bike has its place, but it is not and never will be a direct replacement for the family car. It can compliment it in many cases, that’s true, so why make unrealistic claims about it? It might replace it for your needs, but not for everyone else’s.

My commute to work in London involves less climbs (zero) than it did in Amsterdam. Unless you live in Sheffield or something its not an issue, even less so with the rise of electric assist bikes.

Your point about people and their cars is fair, but you have to look at why thats the case. Over the decades we've made driving the easiest, quickest and most convenient way of getting around. The Dutch don't cycle because they have a love for cycling and exercise, it's just the easiest and quickest way to get from A to B. You don't even think about it.

If you're driving 40m miles to work or whatever you obviously cannot replace that with a bicycle trip and I'd never say you should. Like I said before though, that trip is an exception. A staggeringly high percentage of car trips are within walkable distance, never mind cycle distance. That's where enormous change needs to happen to enable people to cycle safely and get out of cars.

With increasing urbanisation and congestion its simply the future of transport in urban areas. We're just lagging behind the curve at the minute in the UK with a motor obsessed government and a shambles of a transport secretary.

You live in London, most people don’t! It’s bloody hilly in Sunderland, Durham, Newcastle...

I would never claim cycling has no role in transport, I’m simply refuting the claim that it’s a direct replacement for a car. It may be in some situations, but not for all, which you’ve acknowledged above. I don’t think we disagree that much, TBH.

 

[CollingwoodFTM]

Cue the anti cycling brigade about to hot their 2 penny worth in about how bad all cyclists are etc.

Penny farthing worth surely?

 

[Morse]

From leaving home going to work it takes 55 minutes on public transport, 40-45 minutes in my bike or a minimum of 40 minutes in the car.
The reason cycling won’t be the primary mode of transport in this country is laziness

You quote your own personal figures, then use them as a benchmark to condemn the entire nation as lazy! Ha’way man!

People like modern conveniences. Do you do your washing by hand? Use a non-powered lawnmower? Take a bath in front of the fire?

Seriously, though, it’s not necessarily laziness, it’s practicality and convenience. I don’t know why cyclists seem to assume everyone sees cycling the way they do. I don’t fancy getting around on a skateboard or push scooter either! Lazy cyclists! Fancy needing a seat and pedals!

Public transport is the way forward in city centres, people aren’t going to take up cycling en masse, IMO.

The sooner we look at massively reducing private vehicles in major city centres the better. There is very little need for the vast majority of private vehicle journeys in central London, there is excellent public transport available that could be used but people in this country think it is a god given right to drive everywhere, because people won’t change this view of their own accord then it will have to be forced upon them by planning.

What does that even mean?! Is cycling a ‘God given right’?

Discussion in twenty year’s time-

‘We need to get these bloody cyclists off the road in city centres, you can’t walk around safely without one of them smashing into you. The lazy bastards should be forced off their cycles and made to walk...’

When it’s your turn to give something up that’s important to you, maybe you won’t be so smug about it. It’s incredible how successful the divide and rule tactic of getting road users fighting amongst themselves has been. Don’t you get that this is in no-one’s interests but the government’s?

If cyclists aren’t the most despised road users now, they’re certainly doing their best to be so.

 

[peachy]

You live in London, most people don’t! It’s bloody hilly in Sunderland, Durham, Newcastle...

Probably hillier in London - goes to 220m above sea level as opposed to 80m in Sunderland.
I just checked as there are loads of hills round here.

 

[Deleted User 2893]

You quote your own personal figures, then use them as a benchmark to condemn the entire nation as lazy! Ha’way man!

People like modern conveniences. Do you do your washing by hand? Use a non-powered lawnmower? Take a bath in front of the fire?

Seriously, though, it’s not necessarily laziness, it’s practicality and convenience. I don’t know why cyclists seem to assume everyone sees cycling the way they do. I don’t fancy getting around on a skateboard or push scooter either! Lazy cyclists! Fancy needing a seat and pedals!

Public transport is the way forward in city centres, people aren’t going to take up cycling en masse, IMO.



What does that even mean?! Is cycling a ‘God given right’?

Discussion in twenty year’s time-

‘We need to get these bloody cyclists off the road in city centres, you can’t walk around safely without one of them smashing into you. The lazy bastards should be forced off their cycles and made to walk...’

When it’s your turn to give something up that’s important to you, maybe you won’t be so smug about it. It’s incredible how successful the divide and rule tactic of getting road users fighting amongst themselves has been. Don’t you get that this is in no-one’s interests but the government’s?

If cyclists aren’t the most despised road users now, they’re certainly doing their best to be so.

I must have misinterpreted all of the reports and stories about britains obesity crisis, I thought it must have been down to laziness that as a nation we are getting fatter and fatter.

 

[southstander]

Probably hillier in London - goes to 220m above sea level as opposed to 80m in Sunderland.
I just checked as there are loads of hills round here.

I am sure I saw on here that the earth is actually flat?

 

[DaveH]

I moved flat using a cargo bike, I had two suitcases on it and an ironing board. If your weekly shop is bigger than that then eat less bait.

You can't make those trips now, no, because its not safe to do so. What I'm saying that is with good infrastructure then you can do all of that and more. It seems unrealistic but you don't need to do that much really.


Cycling on the road is terrifying. It's a valid reason. I wouldn't cycle on the road either after returning to the UK, and I'm a young lad and I'm decent shape. You're never going to get less confident people cycling if it puts someone like myself off.

How does the Netherlands climate compare to ours?

Im pro cycling and I have been keeping a log since the start of July every time I use my bike to commute to work (currently 3 times, with good reason). However come October it is going to be wet, muddy, windy and cold. I think it was one day in March, the weather was bad and it was just horrible cycling in. Got to work wet and muddy. I have a shower so not a real issue until the end of the day changing back into that stuff to come home. In winter when it is dark by 4pm, it never feels safe coming home. There are a lot of issues that town planning can not address.

You also say use cargo bikes, that then becomes that you need two bikes and a place to store them. A couple of the flats I lived in as a student had no bike storage, let alone enough for a large bike and a standard one. We also have the issue that our cycle tracks are abused by motorbikes so now we have narrow railings to get through to access them. Cargo bikes or trailers can not get through.

My previous job was 35 miles away. I don’t give a toss what the average (can you back up your 2k figure, because that sounds very low?) is, cycling was not feasible.

What we need is acceptance. Drivers need to accept that cyclists are valid but vulnerable road users and cyclists need to accept that they have to obey the rules and cycle sensibly. Thankfully most do, and also as I’m close to hitting 1000 miles for the year, I should say that I have probably encountered more patient and courteous drivers, waiting flashing me out etc, thank I have wankers cutting me up.

 

[humbug]

Strange how these debates practically ignore pedestrians despite it being the one mode of moving about common to nearly all of us. I have nothing against cyclists but I still think improving public transport and encouraging it's use should be the main priority.

this whole thread was made to highlight the possibility of making cyclists more accountable for their actions.
typically as i predicted way back it has descended into a few pro cyclists whinging and moaning about their lot and how scary it is to cycle nowadays. bunch of fannies who want everything their way and are simply either too thick and bloodyminded to see the world does not revolve around them and their bikes.
perhaps if they didn't act so holier than thou and pointing the finger at every other form of transport they would get a bit more respect from the general public.

 

[peachy]

I am sure I saw on here that the earth is actually flat?

Oh yes, silly me. Forgot.

 

[James]

this whole thread was made to highlight the possibility of making cyclists more accountable for their actions.
typically as i predicted way back it has descended into a few pro cyclists whinging and moaning about their lot and how scary it is to cycle nowadays. bunch of fannies who want everything their way and are simply either too thick and bloodyminded to see the world does not revolve around them and their bikes.
perhaps if they didn't act so holier than thou and pointing the finger at every other form of transport they would get a bit more respect from the general public.

You're talking rubbish. If drivers weren't killing thousands of people a year you'd get more respect. It's a nonsense argument.

How does the Netherlands climate compare to ours?

Im pro cycling and I have been keeping a log since the start of July every time I use my bike to commute to work (currently 3 times, with good reason). However come October it is going to be wet, muddy, windy and cold. I think it was one day in March, the weather was bad and it was just horrible cycling in. Got to work wet and muddy. I have a shower so not a real issue until the end of the day changing back into that stuff to come home. In winter when it is dark by 4pm, it never feels safe coming home. There are a lot of issues that town planning can not address.

You also say use cargo bikes, that then becomes that you need two bikes and a place to store them. A couple of the flats I lived in as a student had no bike storage, let alone enough for a large bike and a standard one. We also have the issue that our cycle tracks are abused by motorbikes so now we have narrow railings to get through to access them. Cargo bikes or trailers can not get through.

My previous job was 35 miles away. I don’t give a toss what the average (can you back up your 2k figure, because that sounds very low?) is, cycling was not feasible.

What we need is acceptance. Drivers need to accept that cyclists are valid but vulnerable road users and cyclists need to accept that they have to obey the rules and cycle sensibly. Thankfully most do, and also as I’m close to hitting 1000 miles for the year, I should say that I have probably encountered more patient and courteous drivers, waiting flashing me out etc, thank I have wankers cutting me up.

It's about identical. Dark nights and bad weather don't make cycling any less safe if you're protected from motor traffic. Planning can fix that.

My point about cargo bikes was in a country where you could cycle freely you'd probably just have a cargo bike if you had a big family, it's the people carrier of bikes. You'd leave it outside your house locked up like you would a car, expect it takes up a quarter of the space.

I will back up that claim tomorrow when I have time to find the link. It's not about commuting though, it's about car trips, and they're primarily used for leisure or shopping purposes.

 

[steven]

You can cycle anywhere on a bike under 2km. I am obviously saying this in the context of segregated and safe cycle routes a la the Netherlands. This is my point, at the minute doing those small trips on a bike just doesn't seem possible to people so they drive (I am not having a go at anyone who does this, blame the system not the people). It's a sad reflection on how we've planned our transport systems. It's such a small distance, hogging around a 2 ton of metal kicking out fumes is so backwards it mental imo.

You can easily cycle back with a family of fours shopping with a cargo bike, no worries at all. If you live that close to a shop (it's a five min cycle at a slow pace) you wouldn't need to do a massive shop in one go anyway. Your alternative should be delivery by cargo bike. Sainsburys have just completed a study on cargo bike delivery and found that 98% of deliveries can be done by bike. Expect that to be rolled out en masse soon in cities.

Your kids can cycle autonomously to their grandparents place with safe routes. They do in the Netherlands. It expands the area they can play around their home as well.

I don't think many people can even comprehend a different reality to the one we're so used to which is half the problem, especially with this being a political issue at the end of the day.

And before someone says it, no, not every trip can or needs to be done by bicycle, I'm not thick. It's about enabling people to cycle short trips when they're currently driving. Reduce a good percentage of those 50% car trips under 2km and you make an enormous improvement to traffic flow, to quality of life, to air quality etc..

I've moved back to the UK from the Netherlands this year and one of the things that stands out most negatively is cars f***ing everywhere.

I never cycled in NL (I thought I was too shit as I hadn't ridden a bike for 15 years) but walked/got public transport everywhere and f***ing hell it was so much better. You're completely spot on about deliveries etc as I used to see people moving all sorts of huge stuff by bike. People go on about the comparative terrains in NL and the UK but the difference is ultimately in the infrastructure. There's a good public transport network, a proper set of cycle routes, and probably just as importantly they've straight up banned cars in lots of places. Absolutely zero imagination or care when it comes to transport in this country.

 

[James]

I've moved back to the UK from the Netherlands this year and one of the things that stands out most negatively is cars f***ing everywhere.

I never cycled in NL (I thought I was too shit as I hadn't ridden a bike for 15 years) but walked/got public transport everywhere and f***ing hell it was so much better. You're completely spot on about deliveries etc as I used to see people moving all sorts of huge stuff by bike. People go on about the comparative terrains in NL and the UK but the difference is ultimately in the infrastructure. There's a good public transport network, a proper set of cycle routes, and probably just as importantly they've straight up banned cars in lots of places. Absolutely zero imagination or care when it comes to transport in this country.

Glad someone else has seen it from how it could be! Where did you live? I'd move back in a heartbeat given a chance.