Dalian Atkinson - Police on trial

[Tadger]

Firearms are a different thing. Its doesnt require training for anyone to have a round hit an artery or hit you in the mush. The gun laws in america create that fear and until changed and given time to take effect, that fear will always be there

No but I’m saying that in relation to your point about police keeping a cool when others aren’t.

One of the things I like about our armed coppers is the level of specialised training they receive as opposed than your average US copper carrying a gun.

 

[Zinedine Kilbane]

Depends what the subject was doing, you could probably think of a scenario to suit any type of use of force tbh.
What the specifics are for what the subject was doing in this is not clear yet. Couple of witness statements read out which already differ in details and then chinese whispers occur. I would say that for a kick to the head, it would have to be a very detailed justification around the NDM to make that ok and a very bsd situation. The intricate details of that situation are not known yet.

It has however taken only the first page for the braindead to come up with ACAB and that cops are uneducated...despite it now being professional role requiring a degree
Will wait for the whole evidence to come out and see whats what. If what has happened is as some think, send them down, they need to be accountable. Cops need to be cool even when everyone else isnt.

They hand out degrees like confetti these days man. Anything less than a 2:1 isn't worth wiping your arse with but no doubt they will be accepted into the force with a 2:2 or a third class honours will they?

FWIW I have a 2:1 & an MSc (Masters degree) so yes, even with a micky mouse degree cops are still thicker than me

I'm talking your average PC plod here btw so no not all cops are thick, detectives and those using their brains to investigate cases are clearly intelligent folk.

The plods on the ground are glorified bouncers

 

[The soap powder]

Its the first ive heard of this one. All i heard were two imprints left in his forehead from laces of the cops boot. Sky report doesnt report anything about being kicked 15 times and thats quoting the prosecution.

Further up the thread an eye witness reported this

 

[The Krankie Returns]

They hand out degrees like confetti these days man. Anything less than a 2:1 isn't worth wiping your arse with but no doubt they will be accepted into the force with a 2:2 or a third class honours will they?

FWIW I have a 2:1 & an MSc (Masters degree) so yes, even with a micky mouse degree cops are still thicker than me

I'm talking your average PC plod here btw so no not all cops are thick, detectives and those using their brains to investigate cases are clearly intelligent folk.

The plods on the ground are glorified bouncers

You do know that all cops start of, as you call them, as PC plod. I was in CID for most of my career in the UK and I’m of average intelligence. I have what most cops have, common sense and a clear sense of right and wrong.
Well done on getting a MSc. I’ve got City & Guilds.

 

[BlackOps]

Further up the thread an eye witness reported this

An eye witness also reported 3/4 kicks

They hand out degrees like confetti these days man. Anything less than a 2:1 isn't worth wiping your arse with but no doubt they will be accepted into the force with a 2:2 or a third class honours will they?

FWIW I have a 2:1 & an MSc (Masters degree) so yes, even with a micky mouse degree cops are still thicker than me

I'm talking your average PC plod here btw so no not all cops are thick, detectives and those using their brains to investigate cases are clearly intelligent folk.

The plods on the ground are glorified bouncers

The cops on the ground are your future CID/safeguarding/major crime/NCA/AFOs. The ones you stated are using their brains?
Rare anyone stays on response now.

 

[The soap powder]

An eye witness also reported 3/4 kicks


The cops on the ground are your future CID/safeguarding/major crime/NCA/AFOs. The ones you stated are using their brains?
Rare anyone stays on response now.

oh well some kicks hard enough to leave an imprint then

 

[BlackOps]

oh well some kicks hard enough to leave an imprint then

Yup. Most kicks are. Im leaving however the outcome up to the court as i dont know the facts. I'll leave the credibility of the witness statements however up to the judge given their differences. I'll not take one as gospel and other as not.
As pointed out however, a kick to the head could be justifiable in certain, special and shit circumstances. We dont know the facts yet of those circumstamces

 

[The soap powder]

Yup. Most kicks are. Im leaving however the outcome up to the court as i dont know the facts. I'll leave the credibility of the witness statements however up to the judge given their differences. I'll not take one as gospel and other as not.
As pointed out however, a kick to the head could be justifiable in certain, special and shit circumstances. We dont know the facts yet of those circumstamces

Yeah i agree let the jury make the decision but so far the evidence is piling up against the police officers

 

[riffraff]

Once the trial is over, only then will we know the full extent of what happened and why.

Are you sure?

Both officers were in a relationship probably explains why the WPC beat the unfortunate gentleman a number of times with her baton as he lay still on the road

WTF! Their not supposed to be in the same station if in a relationship aren’t they?

 

[The Krankie Returns]

Are you sure?

WTF! Their not supposed to be in the same station if in a relationship aren’t they?

You can’t stop officers in a relationship from serving together. Or at least you couldn’t.

 

[BlackOps]

Yeah i agree let the jury make the decision but so far the evidence is piling up against the police officers

I agree. Like i said only in really bad circumstances should anyone be kicked to the head

You can’t stop officers in a relationship from serving together. Or at least you couldn’t.

Dont think you can stop it. I think it has to be disclosed to senior officers however. Likely a break up would force a movement of shifts however

Are you sure?

WTF! Their not supposed to be in the same station if in a relationship aren’t they?

Think thats a push from some crazy theories of cover ups etc that a jury/judge would not make the correct decision and all the evidence to be heard. What are you suggesting?

 

[riffraff]

Can someone confirm for me that two cops in a relationship aren’t supposed to be in the same station?
An old gfs sister was a WPC and knocking about with a PC in her station. Everyone knew and it took a lot of persuasion from her parents who both worked in emergency services to convince one to request a transfer. He moved in the end.
This sort of stuff was her parents biggest fear.
Ive a feeling there’s gonna be a lot of cop couples shifting stations all ower the country.

I agree. Like i said only in really bad circumstances should anyone be kicked to the head


Dont think you can stop it. I think it has to be disclosed to senior officers however. Likely a break up would force a movement of shifts however


Think thats a push from some crazy theories of cover ups etc that a jury/judge would not make the correct decision and all the evidence to be heard. What are you suggesting?

I’m suggesting that not every court case has everything brought to light. Not this one specifically. Everything may come out, everything may not and that applies to every case. Only those hiding summet would know. The smb certainly wouldn’t.

You can’t stop officers in a relationship from serving together. Or at least you couldn’t.

I think that’ll be changing. If it doesn’t there’s summet seriously wrong.

 

[Deleted member 22590]

Can someone confirm for me that two cops in a relationship aren’t supposed to be in the same station?
An old gfs sister was a WPC and knocking about with a PC in her station. Everyone knew and it took a lot of persuasion from her parents who both worked in emergency services to convince one to request a transfer. He moved in the end.
This sort of stuff was her parents biggest fear.
Ive a feeling there’s gonna be a lot of cop couples shifting stations all ower the country.

I’m suggesting that not every court case has everything brought to light. Not this one specifically. Everything may come out, everything may not and that applies to every case. Only those hiding summet would know. The smb certainly wouldn’t.

I think that’ll be changing. If it doesn’t there’s summet seriously wrong.

Absolutely fine for cops to work in the same station as each other whilst in a relationship. I've known plenty who were in relationships and even married who worked on the same team let alone same nick.

 

[Zinedine Kilbane]

You do know that all cops start of, as you call them, as PC plod. I was in CID for most of my career in the UK and I’m of average intelligence. I have what most cops have, common sense and a clear sense of right and wrong.
Well done on getting a MSc. I’ve got City & Guilds.

I do know that yes, but if you're still a plod at the age of approx 40 as the PC in question was at the time of the incident, after presumably spending a considerably long time in the force already ... you're clearly going nowhere fast.

This is clearly indicative of someone not bright enough to progress or has showed his superiors some behavioural issues to cause them concern over giving him more powers.

Well done on your qualification & i'm sure you're above average intelligence given your career. I think most people have a clear sense of right and wrong but their moral compass becomes skewed for varying reasons.

When I say don't employ thickos i'm talking about emotional intelligence also which I believe is just as important as intellectual intelligence which I appreciate you can't grade in degrees or the like. Surely psychological assessments show up any issues but perhaps it's easy to hide the fact you're a narcissist, egotistical or in some way unstable - i don't have any experience in vetting and assessing for any psychological issues but this is my opinion on the matter - it seems like others have said above it's a murder caused by a fit of anger resulting in his death. To me it's 2 lovers carried away by their powers and angry at someone scaring them and not obeying them. They have lost control and call it arrogance or whatever you want they believed that it was ok, as police officers, to kick a man repeatedly in the head while he is down on the floor. Not to mention the tasering which I won't go into as regardless of whether it worked or not, he still attempted to taser him for over 30 seconds.

Even in a street fight you know not to do that to a downed opponent, i'm sure people will have been sent down for attempted murder for doing that but 2 trained police officers who have tasers & batons and should know fine well how to subdue someone still think that it's ok to repeatedly kick someone on the deck repeatedly in the head ... it's a cowardly murder by 2 people employed by the government to protect & serve who are intent on inflicting as much pain as possible on another human being going through a terrible episode

 

[riffraff]

Absolutely fine for cops to work in the same station as each other whilst in a relationship. I've known plenty who were in relationships and even married who worked on the same team let alone same nick.

Is that in your opinion or just in police regs?

If it turns out the lads over reacted cos his GF/Mrs is in danger then it’s pretty obviously not fine at all.

 

[Nukehasslefan]

Are you sure?

No.
What I should've said is: we will only know what was admissible and deliberated upon.

 

[ned_werby]

I agree. Like i said only in really bad circumstances should anyone be kicked to the head

You what?

 

[Jimnastic]

Can someone confirm for me that two cops in a relationship aren’t supposed to be in the same station?
An old gfs sister was a WPC and knocking about with a PC in her station. Everyone knew and it took a lot of persuasion from her parents who both worked in emergency services to convince one to request a transfer. He moved in the end.
This sort of stuff was her parents biggest fear.
Ive a feeling there’s gonna be a lot of cop couples shifting stations all ower the country.

I’m suggesting that not every court case has everything brought to light. Not this one specifically. Everything may come out, everything may not and that applies to every case. Only those hiding summet would know. The smb certainly wouldn’t.

I think that’ll be changing. If it doesn’t there’s summet seriously wrong.

I can confirm, that once upon a time, if two Officers were in a relationship, one would be posted to another Station, without question. Nowadays, it wouldn't happen, as it would be seen as discriminatory. I cant say for certain, but would imafine this Policy changed following the ECHR legislation, under the umbrella of "Right to private life"

 

[Deleted member 22590]

Is that in your opinion or just in police regs?

If it turns out the lads over reacted cos his GF/Mrs is in danger then it’s pretty obviously not fine at all.

It's both my opinion and it's not in the regs that you CAN'T be in a relationship so I assume it's also widely considered not an issue. Someone would've challenged it under right to private life by now if it was I'd imagine

 

[The Krankie Returns]

I do know that yes, but if you're still a plod at the age of approx 40 as the PC in question was at the time of the incident, after presumably spending a considerably long time in the force already ... you're clearly going nowhere fast.

This is clearly indicative of someone not bright enough to progress or has showed his superiors some behavioural issues to cause them concern over giving him more powers.

Well done on your qualification & i'm sure you're above average intelligence given your career. I think most people have a clear sense of right and wrong but their moral compass becomes skewed for varying reasons.

When I say don't employ thickos i'm talking about emotional intelligence also which I believe is just as important as intellectual intelligence which I appreciate you can't grade in degrees or the like. Surely psychological assessments show up any issues but perhaps it's easy to hide the fact you're a narcissist, egotistical or in some way unstable - i don't have any experience in vetting and assessing for any psychological issues but this is my opinion on the matter - it seems like others have said above it's a murder caused by a fit of anger resulting in his death. To me it's 2 lovers carried away by their powers and angry at someone scaring them and not obeying them. They have lost control and call it arrogance or whatever you want they believed that it was ok, as police officers, to kick a man repeatedly in the head while he is down on the floor. Not to mention the tasering which I won't go into as regardless of whether it worked or not, he still attempted to taser him for over 30 seconds.

Even in a street fight you know not to do that to a downed opponent, i'm sure people will have been sent down for attempted murder for doing that but 2 trained police officers who have tasers & batons and should know fine well how to subdue someone still think that it's ok to repeatedly kick someone on the deck repeatedly in the head ... it's a cowardly murder by 2 people employed by the government to protect & serve who are intent on inflicting as much pain as possible on another human being going through a terrible episode

Or maybe they are happy doing what they do? Becoming a detective isn’t a promotion. I chose to do it because that’s what interested me. Neither is becoming a firearms officer or any other role that isn’t GD policing a promotion.
Ive met plenty of Constables who would make excellent sergeants. For reasons personal to them they decide not to. Likewise I’ve met sergeants and ranks higher that have been promoted way above their ability.
It’s been my experience both in the UK and where I am now that police officers aren’t thick. Policing, like every other profession has evolved. When I was a trainer at the academy, it was the norm for officers to have a degree. Very recently I have had a probationer on my team with a degree in mechanical engineering - not a degree he got for just turning up at university a couple of times a month.
As an aside, have you ever taken on someone with drug induced psychosis? Batons aren’t effective as they don’t feel the pain. CS spray is equally ineffective as anyone with the right mindset can fight through that. Once the cycle of the Taser finishes they get up and start fighting. They just keep on fighting and fighting until their body finally gives up. Now, I’m not suggesting that Dalian Atkinson had this, but people with mental health issues are predictably unpredictable and they tend to self-medicate with substances that aren’t available through the NHS and until you turn up at the scene you have no idea what you’re going to contend with. It’s not like the movies where the good guy turns up and solves the problem in the three minutes allotted for that scene.
Like others have said, the ‘evidence’ that you/we get is through the media. It’s unhelpful to speculate as to the motives of those concerned. I’ll guarantee you one thing though. Neither of them started their shift thinking or intending it would turn out the way it did.