Dalian Atkinson - Police on trial

[Norwich Red n White]

The Taser was cycled a further five times. Whether or not it was effective is another thing entirely. Just because a Taser is used it doesn’t necessarily follow that the probes connected with the target and the circuit was completed. For all we know, the Taser may have been completely ineffective.

Have they said what happened to him when the taser was being cycled? As in was he still walking around with little effect and therefore still a threat, or was he laying on the ground?

Makes all the difference and the only way to judge the long use of it.

 

[ned_werby]

but to label a whole organization due to the actions of a few is ridiculous.

Agreed. Classifying a whole group of people by one common characteristic is both repugnant and stupid, I'm sure you'd agree.

 

[The Krankie Returns]

The prosecution contends that they discharged the Taser into him for 33 seconds. If the evidence shows that's what happened it's pretty damning


Oh, goody

The prosecution can only say that the Taser was cycled for 33 seconds. What the prosecution are unable to say is how long, if at all, the circuit was completed for, this causing neuro-muscular incapacitation, which is what a Taser is designed to do.
I’m not defending the officers here btw, but the prosecution are relying on the outrage factor of 33 seconds to convince a jury that its use was disproportionate to the situation at hand.
And before you ask, I carry a Taser, CS spray, baton and a Glock firearm with 30 rounds every day at work. A Taser is only effective if the circuit is completed. If it’s not then the Taser is fairly useless. I’ve never had occasion to use any of those force options yet and I sincerely hope I never have to. But what I and my colleagues don’t have at times is the luxury of debating what actions we should take in situations like this.
There is no ‘one size fits all’ procedure to be followed. These situations are very dynamic and fast moving so decisions have to be made and acted upon quickly. If, in the cold light of day, those decisions are reviewed and found to be disproportionate then depending on the actions taken a whole raft of disciplinary procedures could be enacted all the way from no action to charged with a criminal offence.

 

[monkeytassle]

The prosecution can only say that the Taser was cycled for 33 seconds. What the prosecution are unable to say is how long, if at all, the circuit was completed for, this causing neuro-muscular incapacitation, which is what a Taser is designed to do.
I’m not defending the officers here btw, but the prosecution are relying on the outrage factor of 33 seconds to convince a jury that its use was disproportionate to the situation at hand.
And before you ask, I carry a Taser, CS spray, baton and a Glock firearm with 30 rounds every day at work. A Taser is only effective if the circuit is completed. If it’s not then the Taser is fairly useless. I’ve never had occasion to use any of those force options yet and I sincerely hope I never have to. But what I and my colleagues don’t have at times is the luxury of debating what actions we should take in situations like this.
There is no ‘one size fits all’ procedure to be followed. These situations are very dynamic and fast moving so decisions have to be made and acted upon quickly. If, in the cold light of day, those decisions are reviewed and found to be disproportionate then depending on the actions taken a whole raft of disciplinary procedures could be enacted all the way from no action to charged with a criminal offence.

I've said this before on another thread but having had an investigation 3y after the date of the occurrence was an eye opener.

 

[The Hesford Diet]

He absolutely destroyed us once at Portman Road in his Ipswich days. He's also possibly the only one who had ever celebrated a goal with an umbrella.

There were clearly some severe mental health illnesses affecting both him and his family at the time, on top of a serious heart condition, which adds to the tragedy of it all.

I'll trust the due process of law to decide guilt or otherwise of those directly responsible for him dying that night, and remember the talent I saw with my own eyes of someone taken far too early.

 

[The soap powder]

Not quite sure how anyone can defend what the police officer did

I know in the heat of the moment we would all defend ourselves no matter what it took but to tazer someone for 33 seconds and then kick them in the head up to 15 times leaving the imprint of your boot on their face

Seems pretty damming evidence

 

[Baloo]

not being funny but how did they leave imprints of shoelaces on his face?How does that actually happen when they are on the top of the shoe

tragic case all around,hopefully justice is carried out

It's a fairly standard way to kick leading with the part of the foot that has the laces on it. It's one of the main ways to kick a football, for example.

not really sure what the relevance of that is with leaving footprint traces on Atkinson but never mind

You asked how it's possible for kicking someone to leave laces imprinted when kicking someone. That's how.

Listen I've got no time for you so please stop interacting with me. Thanks.

 

[The Albanian]

not really sure what the relevance of that is with leaving footprint traces on Atkinson but never mind

Jesus. Looks like there’s a kicking-people-in-the-head pandemic

 

[Father Jack Hackett]

Booting someone in the head (especially over and over) can never be classed as reasonable force in order to detain someone.

 

[BlackOps]

Not quite sure how anyone can defend what the police officer did

I know in the heat of the moment we would all defend ourselves no matter what it took but to tazer someone for 33 seconds and then kick them in the head up to 15 times leaving the imprint of your boot on their face

Seems pretty damming evidence

Its the first ive heard of this one. All i heard were two imprints left in his forehead from laces of the cops boot. Sky report doesnt report anything about being kicked 15 times and thats quoting the prosecution.

 

[palm 1]

Its the first ive heard of this one. All i heard were two imprints left in his forehead from laces of the cops boot. Sky report doesnt report anything about being kicked 15 times and thats quoting the prosecution.

I wondered where this had come from . Only read on here about the 15 kicks .

 

[td586]

I wondered where this had come from . Only read on here about the 15 kicks .

someone will be along soon and say it was 20.

 

[BlackOps]

someone will be along soon and say it was 20.

This is the issue is that people take the reports, their perception on policing and taser (where every member of the public think they're an expert) and a whole new story comes out

 

[palm 1]

someone will be along soon and say it was 20.

I’ve actually found where it came from . One witness thought there was about 15 kicks another about 3/4 . Quite a large difference in accounts . Doesn’t sound great for the officers involved but I’ll wait until I’ve heard all the evidence until I pass judgement.

 

[Nukehasslefan]

Once the trial is over, only then will we know the full extent of what happened and why.

 

[Tadger]

I'd agree with that but I'd add in a lot of fear as well. The angle that is being spun by many is that the two cops set out on their shift thirsty for blood and intent on using their position as a foil to satisfy their sadistic urges.

He literally answered your question.

I think it’s two coppers who’ve lost control and it’s cost someone their life.

I don’t think they’re evil, but their actions have had consequences and they need to made to face those consequences.

In some ways you can draw a parallel to the Sgt. Blackman case. He executed a wounded combatant in what was presumably a fit of rage. At the time many many people were up in arms about the fact he was being made to held accountable at all, allowing their personal reverence for the military (which I share by the way) to cloud their judgement. I think there can be a similar feeling towards the police; men and women putting themselves in harms way for the overall benefit of society so when the strains of these roles manifest themselves in unlawful acts they should be allowed to get away with it. But these institutions have their own standards and anyone saying it should be ignored fail to see the bigger picture if we allow people in positions of authority with the power over life and death to get away with it when they either deliberately abuse their power or lose control.

Can I understand why Sgt Blackman shot the insurgent; in my limited capacity as a civvy, yes. Can I understand why a copper faced with a potentially dangerous individual could lose control and use excessive force, yes.

But understanding and condoning aren’t the same thing.

Its the first ive heard of this one. All i heard were two imprints left in his forehead from laces of the cops boot. Sky report doesnt report anything about being kicked 15 times and thats quoting the prosecution.

Is kicking an unarmed suspect in the head who’s already on the ground even once ever a justifiable use of force?

 

[Deleted member 43869]

I think it’s two coppers who’ve lost control and it’s cost someone their life.

I don’t think they’re evil, but their actions have had consequences and they need to made to face those consequences.

In some ways you can draw a parallel to the Sgt. Blackman case. He executed a wounded combatant in what was presumably a fit of rage. At the time many many people were up in arms about the fact he was being made to held accountable at all, allowing their personal reverence for the military (which I share by the way) to cloud their judgement. I think there can be a similar feeling towards the police; men and women putting themselves in harms way for the overall benefit of society so when the strains of these roles manifest themselves in unlawful acts they should be allowed to get away with it. But these institutions have their own standards and anyone saying it should be ignored fail to see the bigger picture if we allow people in positions of authority with the power over life and death to get away with it when they either deliberately abuse their power or lose control.

Can I understand why Sgt Blackman shot the insurgent; in my limited capacity as a civvy, yes. Can I understand why a copper faced with a potentially dangerous individual could lose control and use excessive force, yes.

But understanding and condoning aren’t the same thing.


Is kicking an unarmed suspect in the head who’s already on the ground even once ever a justifiable use of force?

I'm very sympathetic to the police but I think this summary is pretty balanced and fair. Its unfortunate that these situations are used to fuel the 'all police are scum' narrative.

 

[BlackOps]

I think it’s two coppers who’ve lost control and it’s cost someone their life.

I don’t think they’re evil, but their actions have had consequences and they need to made to face those consequences.

In some ways you can draw a parallel to the Sgt. Blackman case. He executed a wounded combatant in what was presumably a fit of rage. At the time many many people were up in arms about the fact he was being made to held accountable at all, allowing their personal reverence for the military (which I share by the way) to cloud their judgement. I think there can be a similar feeling towards the police; men and women putting themselves in harms way for the overall benefit of society so when the strains of these roles manifest themselves in unlawful acts they should be allowed to get away with it. But these institutions have their own standards and anyone saying it should be ignored fail to see the bigger picture if we allow people in positions of authority with the power over life and death to get away with it when they either deliberately abuse their power or lose control.

Can I understand why Sgt Blackman shot the insurgent; in my limited capacity as a civvy, yes. Can I understand why a copper faced with a potentially dangerous individual could lose control and use excessive force, yes.

But understanding and condoning aren’t the same thing.


Is kicking an unarmed suspect in the head who’s already on the ground even once ever a justifiable use of force?

Depends what the subject was doing, you could probably think of a scenario to suit any type of use of force tbh.
What the specifics are for what the subject was doing in this is not clear yet. Couple of witness statements read out which already differ in details and then chinese whispers occur. I would say that for a kick to the head, it would have to be a very detailed justification around the NDM to make that ok and a very bsd situation. The intricate details of that situation are not known yet.

It has however taken only the first page for the braindead to come up with ACAB and that cops are uneducated...despite it now being professional role requiring a degree
Will wait for the whole evidence to come out and see whats what. If what has happened is as some think, send them down, they need to be accountable. Cops need to be cool even when everyone else isnt.

 

[Tadger]

Depends what the subject was doing, you could probably think of a scenario to suit any type of use of force tbh.
What the specifics are for what the subject was doing in this is not clear yet. Couple of witness statements read out which already differ in details and then chinese whispers occur. I would say that for a kick to the head, it would have to be a very detailed justification around the NDM to make that ok and a very bsd situation. The intricate details of that situation are not known yet.

It has however taken only the first page for the braindead to come up with ACAB and that cops are uneducated...despite it now being professional role requiring a degree
Will wait for the whole evidence to come out and see whats what. If what has happened is as some think, send them down, they need to be accountable. Cops need to be cool even when everyone else isnt.

Good to hear you say that.

I know it doesn’t necessarily relate to UK coppers, but the yank police like to crow about being constantly in fear of their lives which explains why they sometimes shoot unarmed suspects because they don’t react the way their being commanded to, whilst ignoring the fact that suspect presumably has had no training, whilst the copper will have done.

 

[BlackOps]

Good to hear you say that.

I know it doesn’t necessarily relate to UK coppers, but the yank police like to crow about being constantly in fear of their lives which explains why they sometimes shoot unarmed suspects because they don’t react the way their being commanded to, whilst ignoring the fact that suspect presumably has had no training, whilst the copper will have done.

Firearms are a different thing. Its doesnt require training for anyone to have a round hit an artery or hit you in the mush. The gun laws in america create that fear and until changed and given time to take effect, that fear will always be there