Cyclists on the road...

[Billy Fish]

Put the correct infrastructure in and it great to see how easy it can be a D how many people are encouraged to go from 4 wheels to 2.
Had a stop over in Munich last night and they've got it sussed nicely and there's loads of cyclists mingling with peds and cars.

Plenty of good bike storage too.

 

[Deleted member 5265]

You're missing the point. It's a total failure of the design of the road. A mistake from either party on the road should not end up with someone under a HGV. People have filtered up the front of that junction expecting a ASL, once you're there and there isn't one you're in a shit situation where you're literally competing with a lorry for road space. It's appalling infrastructure design which isn't safe for cyclists to use.

This is exactly why you'll see the odd cyclist jump a red light as well, it gets you ahead of situations like this.

Fwiw if I was that bloke I wouldn't be up the inside of a lorry.

It really wasn't the fault of the road design. They were in the wrong lane. Yes, the road should have been designed better but when we use the roads, we have to work with how they are. Imagine if the situation was reversed: six bikes in the middle lane correctly positioned to go straight on, and a car in the left hand lane which is clearly marked as turn left only, but which then went straight on, causing bother to the cyclists. There'd be outrage, rightly so.

'but this is london' they said, like it was law that they had right of way

This is what I keep going on about as a pedestrian in London - you get this attitude from some London cyclists.

 

[pillars of hercules]

Cyclists are within their rights to do this but it must make the chances of getting knocked off your bike by some impatient tw@t much more likely.

 

[Deleted member 5265]

Cyclists are within their rights to do this but it must make the chances of getting knocked off your bike by some impatient tw@t much more likely.

I disagree TBH mate. The psychological effects of killing someone by accident can be devastating. Even if someone is reckless about whether they go under the wheels of an artic, they owe a duty of care to the driver. That shouting and swearing the driver did when he got out of his cab wasn't anger, it was shock that he nearly killed someone through no fault of his own.

 

[Deleted member 22590]

It really wasn't the fault of the road design. They were in the wrong lane. Yes, the road should have been designed better but when we use the roads, we have to work with how they are. Imagine if the situation was reversed: six bikes in the middle lane correctly positioned to go straight on, and a car in the left hand lane which is clearly marked as turn left only, but which then went straight on, causing bother to the cyclists. There'd be outrage, rightly so.


This is what I keep going on about as a pedestrian in London - you get this attitude from some London cyclists.

If I didn't know the road and if I was going straight on, id have gone up the inside lane there, expecting an ASL-it really needs one. If I did know the road, firstly I'd try and avoid it because it looks horrible for a cyclist but I'd stay in that middle lane and take my chances aware.

 

[Deleted member 5265]

If I didn't know the road and if I was going straight on, id have gone up the inside lane there, expecting an ASL-it really needs one. If I did know the road, firstly I'd try and avoid it because it looks horrible for a cyclist but I'd stay in that middle lane and take my chances aware.

I wonder if there was a bit of group think - you see 4 or 5 cyclists stopped by the lights in the left-only lane and think "oh they must know what they're doing". Group think is very human, but can be very dangerous. Is an ASL one of those green cyclist only boxes at the front of the junction? If so, I agree.

 

[longtimelurker]

Bought mesel a Planet X cyclocross bike in the week.
Gonna dodge out and get some pedals for it, today.

Can't wait to go for a road ride.

 

[monkeytassle]

It really wasn't the fault of the road design. They were in the wrong lane. Yes, the road should have been designed better but when we use the roads, we have to work with how they are. Imagine if the situation was reversed: six bikes in the middle lane correctly positioned to go straight on, and a car in the left hand lane which is clearly marked as turn left only, but which then went straight on, causing bother to the cyclists. There'd be outrage, rightly so.


This is what I keep going on about as a pedestrian in London - you get this attitude from some London cyclists.

Quite often cycle "lanes" which are narrow green strips which go over sunken ironwork for the most part either abruptly end or direct you into these lanes.

Road design in London is abysmal for bikes.

 

[Deleted member 22590]

I wonder if there was a bit of group think - you see 4 or 5 cyclists stopped by the lights in the left-only lane and think "oh they must know what they're doing". Group think is very human, but can be very dangerous. Is an ASL one of those green cyclist only boxes at the front of the junction? If so, I agree.

It is aye- they're at most lights up here and I'm really surprised there's not one at that junction. I would have followed the crowd there, got to the front and probably panicked and bailed onto the pavement to go across as a pedestrian rather than tangle with a lorry. That said, I just wouldn't cycle in London- don't know the roads and too busy for me. I'm just generally scared of London anyway!

 

[monkeytassle]

It is aye- they're at most lights up here and I'm really surprised there's not one at that junction. I would have followed the crowd there, got to the front and probably panicked and bailed onto the pavement to go across as a pedestrian rather than tangle with a lorry. That said, I just wouldn't cycle in London- don't know the roads and too busy for me. I'm just generally scared of London anyway!

I don't think it's that bad but then again I've done it for many years. Like riding a motorbike there's a lot of planning ahead to be done plus you can minimise your risk by not going up the inside of large vehicles for example

 

[James]

It really wasn't the fault of the road design. They were in the wrong lane. Yes, the road should have been designed better but when we use the roads, we have to work with how they are. Imagine if the situation was reversed: six bikes in the middle lane correctly positioned to go straight on, and a car in the left hand lane which is clearly marked as turn left only, but which then went straight on, causing bother to the cyclists. There'd be outrage, rightly so.


This is what I keep going on about as a pedestrian in London - you get this attitude from some London cyclists.

It's very much a fault of road design. That behaviour you describe from the people cycling has been shaped by their experiences of how roads are designed in London.

ASLs are crap for the most part. Once you have a situation where they're there at some junctions and not at others you've created a very dangerous problem where cyclists are encouraged to filter up to the front, only to be ditched to the side of vehicles if there isn't a ASL there, or stuck behind them if it's full (common at peak times).

It's depressing watching that video as you know nothing will change either. I have sympathy for both parties, I'm just very relieved that bloke bounced off the truck and kept his balance. It would've been another entirely preventable death.

 

[Deleted member 22590]

I don't think it's that bad but then again I've done it for many years. Like riding a motorbike there's a lot of planning ahead to be done plus you can minimise your risk by not going up the inside of large vehicles for example

It's all about knowing the roads and what you're used to I suppose. I'm sure it's fine if you know what you're doing but it just doesn't look fun from an outsiders perspective- too many stops and starts as much as anything.

 

[monkeytassle]

It's all about knowing the roads and what you're used to I suppose. I'm sure it's fine if you know what you're doing but it just doesn't look fun from an outsiders perspective- too many stops and starts as much as anything.

I get very nervous sitting at the front of traffic at lights waiting in an Asl.

 

[James]

Put the correct infrastructure in and it great to see how easy it can be a D how many people are encouraged to go from 4 wheels to 2.
Had a stop over in Munich last night and they've got it sussed nicely and there's loads of cyclists mingling with peds and cars.

Plenty of good bike storage too.

Loads of people cycling among cars and pedestrians sounds awful!

 

[Deleted member 5265]

It's very much a fault of road design. That behaviour you describe from the people cycling has been shaped by their experiences of how roads are designed in London.

ASLs are crap for the most part. Once you have a situation where they're there at some junctions and not at others you've created a very dangerous problem where cyclists are encouraged to filter up to the front, only to be ditched to the side of vehicles if there isn't a ASL there, or stuck behind them if it's full (common at peak times).

It's depressing watching that video as you know nothing will change either. I have sympathy for both parties, I'm just very relieved that bloke bounced off the truck and kept his balance. It would've been another entirely preventable death.

Mate, if you can't see how this particular incident was the fault of the cyclists then you're being wilfully blind. Pro cyclist at all costs, no matter the circumstances, coneveniently ignoring other points of view does seem to be your style though unfortunately.

 

[James]

Mate, if you can't see how this particular incident was the fault of the cyclists then you're being wilfully blind. Pro cyclist at all costs, no matter the circumstances, coneveniently ignoring other points of view does seem to be your style though unfortunately.

It's just boring to rage at people cycling all the time, I'd rather look at the conditions which encourage people to behave in certain ways. Cycling in London is like an urban sport, not a normalised form of transport. It doesn't surprise me at all, with that in mind, that certain people act irresponsibility or push things too far. However one mistake shouldn't end up with someone dead, if that's happening (v nearly did in that video) then you have to consider what role infrastructure played in that.

I've given a well reasoned opinion of that as well which ties in with your own comments on human behaviour. I've also said I have sympathy for both parties, they've both been put in a terrible situation. What point of view have I ignored?

 

[Deleted member 5265]

It's just boring to rage at people cycling all the time, I'd rather look at the conditions which encourage people to behave in certain ways. Cycling in London is like an urban sport, not a normalised form of transport. It doesn't surprise me at all, with that in mind, that certain people act irresponsibility or push things too far. However one mistake shouldn't end up with someone dead, if that's happening (v nearly did in that video) then you have to consider what role infrastructure played in that.

I've given a well reasoned opinion of that as well which ties in with your own comments on human behaviour. I've also said I have sympathy for both parties, they've both been put in a terrible situation. What point of view have I ignored?

Your first sentence is fair enough. I do take issue with the sentence "Cycling in London is like an urban sport, not a normalised form of transport' - if people approach it that way, that's a huge problem. To do it safely (for oneself and others) given the overcrowded London streets, it's necessary to approach it cautiously and with full consideration for others: stick to the rules of the road, bring a chilled mentality to it, even - dare I say it - regard it as an opportunity to display how nice and considerate one is! Give way, indicate intentions clearly, say thank you. (Would encourage all road users to behave like this, not just cyclists.)

 

[monkeytassle]

Your first sentence is fair enough. I do take issue with the sentence "Cycling in London is like an urban sport, not a normalised form of transport' - if people approach it that way, that's a huge problem. To do it safely (for oneself and others) given the overcrowded London streets, it's necessary to approach it cautiously and with full consideration for others: stick to the rules of the road, bring a chilled mentality to it, even - dare I say it - regard it as an opportunity to display how nice and considerate one is! Give way, indicate intentions clearly, say thank you. (Would encourage all road users to behave like this, not just cyclists.)

I approach every commute with a let's not die today mentality. I follow all rules of the road and generally be nice. Sometimes I ride aggressively because I need to in order to keep myself safe.

So we are left with two options. Road users learn to accept each other and this is mainly from motor vehicles, or infrastructure is improved and cycling not just an afterthought.

 

[James]

Your first sentence is fair enough. I do take issue with the sentence "Cycling in London is like an urban sport, not a normalised form of transport' - if people approach it that way, that's a huge problem. To do it safely (for oneself and others) given the overcrowded London streets, it's necessary to approach it cautiously and with full consideration for others: stick to the rules of the road, bring a chilled mentality to it, even - dare I say it - regard it as an opportunity to display how nice and considerate one is! Give way, indicate intentions clearly, say thank you. (Would encourage all road users to behave like this, not just cyclists.)

I have to bow to MTs direct experience of this, if you could go around cycling like that I'm sure 99% of people would, unfortunately due to the conditions of the road, like he says, sometimes you need to be more bullish in order to avoid being killed/seriously injured. It's a sad reflection on how the city caters for people who wish to cycle.

 

[Deleted member 5265]

I have to bow to MTs direct experience of this, if you could go around cycling like that I'm sure 99% of people would, unfortunately due to the conditions of the road, like he says, sometimes you need to be more bullish in order to avoid being killed/seriously injured. It's a sad reflection on how the city caters for people who wish to cycle.

I too have direct experience of this, so you can bow to that as well There is quite simply not enough of the attitude I describe. The infrastructure problems have been well-rehearsed on this thread and there are no easy answers; the approach and behaviours I am calling for are therefore even more critical.