Criticism of O'Neill's approach


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Originally Posted by Weremuthe
I'm in the same boat - Swansea was nearly the last straw.

Far too defensive.
Hoof football (Mignolet) from the back which nearly always cedes possession.
No movement.
Rigid two banks of four - no support for the front 2.
Everybody back to defend corners - no chance of a quiclk counter-attack.
Sess and Fletch playing too far apart.


Read more: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=759603&page=4#ixzz2JwKFEVtJ

so basically the same problems as every other team in the bottom half. Fans seem to think that these problems are exclusive to Sunderland. Why do people think that? We represent our position in the league table.

Its the Barca fans again isn't it. Comparing us with Barca etc. ridiculous.

Who compared us with Barca?

Getting some of the basics right would be a start.

Swansea were only 1 place above us but seemed to be light years ahead of us, they passed the ball on the ground, kept possession and didn't just hoof the ball, their defence looked for the ball and split three ways to receive it.

What happens when we've got a throw-in? it always goes down the wing looking for a knock-on instead of in-field, even when there is a man unmarked.
We don't even mark when we are defending a throw-in.

Goal kicks are worse - Fletcher strolls into a space and the rest of the team and the opposition follows like the Ant Hill mob because thats where Mignolet is going to put it and lose it.
 
But we don't have the players too and you don't know what the plans are for shipping players out and bringing players in in the summer

Just need to stick with it till the summer and then hope we buy fast players in the fullback areas especially.

I think Craig Gardner sums us up perfectly. Can't pass a ball or run forward, the ball goes from defence to attack in double quick time.

However I would say that everytime we nock it about in midfield the crowd just moan and show a severe lack of patience, just like that patience we need with Marty now to get it right

I don't know what the plans are, but O'Neill's been here a year, and he's pretty consistently stuck with the same formation and tactics, even when he doesn't really have the players to play it properly. I'd put money that next year he'll be trying to do the same thing, sit deep and play on the counter, it's what he does, it's the way he's always played, there's no reason to think he's going to start trying to play something else next year.

Which is fair enough, he's the manager, and when it works it produces exciting games. The problem is that when it doesn't work it produces painfully boring ones, filled with long hopeful hoofs up to the striker.

Not wanting to watch that doesn't mean that I expect us to suddenly start playing like Barcelona, it doesn't mean I'll be apoplectic if we don't suddenly start knocking the ball around like we're Brazil, but it would be nice to think in the longer term that we were moving towards trying to play attractive, positive stuff. And the way we've been playing this year, the teams he picks and the formations and tactics he uses, I just can't see much encouragement on that front.
 
I don't know what the plans are, but O'Neill's been here a year, and he's pretty consistently stuck with the same formation and tactics, even when he doesn't really have the players to play it properly. I'd put money that next year he'll be trying to do the same thing, sit deep and play on the counter, it's what he does, it's the way he's always played, there's no reason to think he's going to start trying to play something else next year.

Which is fair enough, he's the manager, and when it works it produces exciting games. The problem is that when it doesn't work it produces painfully boring ones, filled with long hopeful hoofs up to the striker.

Not wanting to watch that doesn't mean that I expect us to suddenly start playing like Barcelona, it doesn't mean I'll be apoplectic if we don't suddenly start knocking the ball around like we're Brazil, but it would be nice to think in the longer term that we were moving towards trying to play attractive, positive stuff. And the way we've been playing this year, the teams he picks and the formations and tactics he uses, I just can't see much encouragement on that front.

I just think the problem is Is that we don't have ball players in the team, IMO Cattermole is the best passer in the team and the only one who seems to be able to consistently pass to a man who is 15-20 yards away.

It's painful at the minute when you watch us play and simple passes are messed up and we give the ball away cheaply however that's not martins fault, it becomes his fault if he doesn't fix it in the summer
 
I just think the problem is Is that we don't have ball players in the team, IMO Cattermole is the best passer in the team and the only one who seems to be able to consistently pass to a man who is 15-20 yards away.

It's painful at the minute when you watch us play and simple passes are messed up and we give the ball away cheaply however that's not martins fault, it becomes his fault if he doesn't fix it in the summer

There's enough quality in this team to play better than they do. What do they do all week? This isn't a 15 point team, there are some good players here, what is it they're practicing Monday to Friday? And quite apart from that, when he arrived (with the same players, by and large) we were playing expansive, attacking football. That first ten games, we threw players forward, scored great goals, and looked like we were going for the win every time we went onto the pitch.

This season, we don't look like we're going out to try and win, we look like we're going out to try not to lose. Over the course of O'Neill's time here we have become more negative, more cautious, and more defensive.

I just can't see that trend turning around, if he was intent on playing attacking football you'd think you'd have seen him try to play some before now. Instead, we've seen him defend his way through the first two thirds of the season producing, for the most part, boring and negative football.
 
There's enough quality in this team to play better than they do. What do they do all week? This isn't a 15 point team, there are some good players here, what is it they're practicing Monday to Friday? And quite apart from that, when he arrived (with the same players, by and large) we were playing expansive, attacking football. That first ten games, we threw players forward, scored great goals, and looked like we were going for the win every time we went onto the pitch.

This season, we don't look like we're going out to try and win, we look like we're going out to try not to lose. Over the course of O'Neill's time here we have become more negative, more cautious, and more defensive.

I just can't see that trend turning around, if he was intent on playing attacking football you'd think you'd have seen him try to play some before now. Instead, we've seen him defend his way through the first two thirds of the season producing, for the most part, boring and negative football.

I just don't think it's oneills fault that when we get the ball noone tries to create space to receive the pass.

When we passed and moved we were awesome against Wigan first half which is my source of optimism. The players went into it wanted to prove a point after the Bolton game. They shouldn't have to have to prove a point to play our best football of the season though, they just went out in that first half vs Reading with the wrong attitude and expected to win. In the second half we were better and didn't deserve to lose like
 
I just don't think it's oneills fault that when we get the ball noone tries to create space to receive the pass.

When we passed and moved we were awesome against Wigan first half which is my source of optimism. The players went into it wanted to prove a point after the Bolton game. They shouldn't have to have to prove a point to play our best football of the season though, they just went out in that first half vs Reading with the wrong attitude and expected to win. In the second half we were better and didn't deserve to lose like

But he's the manager. And that's absolutely basic stuff, basic mistakes that we've been making all season long. I know the "what the hell do they do in training?" line is an oft-repeated one, but seriously, when you consistently fail to pass and move, or to find space, when you can't pass a ball 15 yards, these are all the kinds of things you'd think you'd be doing on the training pitch.

It's not like it's been a one-off, it's been all season we've played like this, and these lads are Premiership footballers, we know they're capable of doing it because we've either seen it for Sunderland or we've seen it for other teams, at what point do those basic failures become the fault of the manager? He might not be causing them, but we're seeing very little evidence of anything being done to correct them.
 
All this crap about tactics etc getting discussed, it all comes down to Better players, which then means a better team, which then means you move up the league. It's Simple when you think about it really ;)
 
But he's the manager. And that's absolutely basic stuff, basic mistakes that we've been making all season long. I know the "what the hell do they do in training?" line is an oft-repeated one, but seriously, when you consistently fail to pass and move, or to find space, when you can't pass a ball 15 yards, these are all the kinds of things you'd think you'd be doing on the training pitch.

It's not like it's been a one-off, it's been all season we've played like this, and these lads are Premiership footballers, we know they're capable of doing it because we've either seen it for Sunderland or we've seen it for other teams, at what point do those basic failures become the fault of the manager? He might not be causing them, but we're seeing very little evidence of anything being done to correct them.

I agree he needs to get them fixed and get a settled team out on the pitch who can get it all going and hopefully look better going forward. All season we've had fletcher isolated as we haven't had any other option and we've got Gardner at Right back who offers nothing to whoever the right winger is, Cattermole has been injured we've made some basic mistakes in defence throwing away games so we just need to get the same team out last 13 games, get to the end of the season respectibly and then hopefully Ellis says there's money here, get rid of who you don't want we will add good depth and then we can start the season well.

This season has been a disaster. Even when you look bsck to how shit we were in pre season, we've bombed out the cups and that's just dampened everything and the league form especially going up to Everton away has been a disaster
 
I agree he needs to get them fixed and get a settled team out on the pitch who can get it all going and hopefully look better going forward. All season we've had fletcher isolated as we haven't had any other option and we've got Gardner at Right back who offers nothing to whoever the right winger is, Cattermole has been injured we've made some basic mistakes in defence throwing away games so we just need to get the same team out last 13 games, get to the end of the season respectibly and then hopefully Ellis says there's money here, get rid of who you don't want we will add good depth and then we can start the season well.

This season has been a disaster. Even when you look bsck to how shit we were in pre season, we've bombed out the cups and that's just dampened everything and the league form especially going up to Everton away has been a disaster

Fair enough, and I agree to an extent, in that he's certainly being hamstrung by the quality of the squad. If he gets money to spend, and a better squad, I'm sure they'll improve. But they're still going to play negative, reactive football, because that's the kind of football he plays.

The problem's still going to be that if things don't fall for them just right in a game they're going to play painfully boring football. It might be that we get 10 good games out of the first 25 next year rather than the 5 or 6 we've had this year. I just can't see him suddenly deciding to play attractive football, when he's been so resistant to even trying to do so up to now. Which is inevitably going to mean that he treads a fine line, great when it works but absolutely dreadful when it doesn't.
 
Fair enough, and I agree to an extent, in that he's certainly being hamstrung by the quality of the squad. If he gets money to spend, and a better squad, I'm sure they'll improve. But they're still going to play negative, reactive football, because that's the kind of football he plays.

The problem's still going to be that if things don't fall for them just right in a game they're going to play painfully boring football. It might be that we get 10 good games out of the first 25 next year rather than the 5 or 6 we've had this year. I just can't see him suddenly deciding to play attractive football, when he's been so resistant to even trying to do so up to now. Which is inevitably going to mean that he treads a fine line, great when it works but absolutely dreadful when it doesn't.

I know, I can't see him abandoning a philosophy that worked so well at villa, they had quality and pace in there team and were the 3rd highest scores in the division one season wernt they? I hope that when we can bring in quality we will get the goals and look better as we have been shocking this season
 
I know, I can't see him abandoning a philosophy that worked so well at villa, they had quality and pace in there team and were the 3rd highest scores in the division one season wernt they? I hope that when we can bring in quality we will get the goals and look better as we have been shocking this season

They did, but he also spent a hell of a lot of money, a lot more than you can see him being allowed to spend here. You'd also have to ask whether the Premier League's moved on even in the short time since he was at Villa, the preponderance of teams playing possession based systems now is something that wasn't being seen even three or four years ago.

I don't necessarily think that's the case, fundamentally I'd think that the way O'Neill plays is bad football even if the league wasn't full of teams who try to pass the ball, but you've got to say his refusal to play anything other than a counterattacking system, even when he's really got very few players capable of making it work, looks misguided at best.
 
Who compared us with Barca?

Getting some of the basics right would be a start.

Swansea were only 1 place above us but seemed to be light years ahead of us, they passed the ball on the ground, kept possession and didn't just hoof the ball, their defence looked for the ball and split three ways to receive it.

What happens when we've got a throw-in? it always goes down the wing looking for a knock-on instead of in-field, even when there is a man unmarked.
We don't even mark when we are defending a throw-in.

Goal kicks are worse - Fletcher strolls into a space and the rest of the team and the opposition follows like the Ant Hill mob because thats where Mignolet is going to put it and lose it.[/QUOTE]

Again, you are describing what goes on in teams at or below our level. Why are you surprised? If we were in the top six,then we would not be doing the things you describe. Look at the league table, that represents the level of performance we produce.
 
They did, but he also spent a hell of a lot of money, a lot more than you can see him being allowed to spend here. You'd also have to ask whether the Premier League's moved on even in the short time since he was at Villa, the preponderance of teams playing possession based systems now is something that wasn't being seen even three or four years ago.

I don't necessarily think that's the case, fundamentally I'd think that the way O'Neill plays is bad football even if the league wasn't full of teams who try to pass the ball, but you've got to say his refusal to play anything other than a counterattacking system, even when he's really got very few players capable of making it work, looks misguided at best.


Yeah, especially when we are going to the likes of Reading with the 'we need to make sure we don't lose first mentality' and then we concede within the first 6 minutes
 
Yeah, especially when we are going to the likes of Reading with the 'we need to make sure we don't lose first mentality' and then we concede within the first 6 minutes

Absolutely. I genuinely hope I'm wrong (because God knows, I'll have to go whatever they play like), and that next season he decides to let them off the leash and start going for games week in, week out, but I have a horrible feeling that this "safety first" approach is the way he's always going to play.
 
I think that when you're as short on pace as we are, you have to concentrate on winning the ball high up the field, which means working hard and pressing right from the front. When we do that, it nearly always works.

Too often we only press the ball when it gets to the edge of our box. We seem to be trying to play a fast, counterattacking style without the pace to counterattack quickly.

I can't understand how MoN is seeing one tactic clearly working well, one clearly not, like we all do, and is still persisting with the one that doesn't.

The safety first approach rarely works, because we're not good enough defensively to keep teams at arm's length for a whole game, and when we go behind we really struggle to change. When we start on the front foot, even if we concede we look likely to get back into it.
 
so basically the same problems as every other team in the bottom half. Fans seem to think that these problems are exclusive to Sunderland. Why do people think that? We represent our position in the league table.

Its the Barca fans again isn't it. Comparing us with Barca etc. ridiculous.

Not one team in the league play stuff as grim as we do like

Oneill was the one that said he wanted to replicate barcas style of play, wasnt he?

We are the only team in the league that only ever has 2 players anywhere near the opposition goal though
 
Not one team in the league play stuff as grim as we do like

Oneill was the one that said he wanted to replicate barcas style of play, wasnt he?

We are the only team in the league that only ever has 2 players anywhere near the opposition goal though

Stoke play a lot worse stuff than us.
 
Criticize MON all you like but we have played Barcelona two times in a row now :roll:



Not anymore they don't. We are the worst team to watch in this league.

When we're poor, we play like a team that's just been promoted. Far more talent, but less ambition than the 15 pointers at times.
 
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