Covid end-game - does it even exist?

dangermows said:
They wear them here.
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I know - I work(ed) in Durham and all the Asian students wore them - force of habit for them though. It's ingrained in them now and they don't know any different even thought here was no real reason for them to wear them in this country (until now). Would hate for us to end up like that.

The worst aspect of this board recently has been the immediate abusive response of those who oppose this type of sentiment. If you dare suggest that there is a lack of proportionality you get called 'thick' or 'selfish' without any type of rebuttal connected to the debate. It's the go to response of those who aren't really affected by the virus but also have a fear based on their own circumstance.
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Agreed - people have even been labelled 'morally reprehensible' for saying they go to the pub regularly, even though they obey all rules and follow all guidelines while doing so.

People regularly get called 'selfish' by posters who fail to realise that their own viewpoint is equally as selfish, just for different reasons.

It's all a bit pathetic really.
 
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Jap Stammer said:
I know - I work(ed) in Durham and all the Asian students wore them - force of habit for them though. It's ingrained in them now and they don't know any different even thought here was no real reason for them to wear them in this country (until now). Would hate for us to end up like that.
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They have grew up in a country with a very controlling and oppressive regime I'm sure its ingrained into them.....
 
Jap Stammer said:
People regularly get called 'selfish' by posters who fail to realise that their own viewpoint is equally as selfish, just for different reasons.
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The irony is lost on a lot of people. It's like the guy at 5 a side who screams for the ball non stop and accuses everyone else of being greedy because they want the ball. Excuse the puerile analogy but it's the first that springs to mind.
 
Jap Stammer said:
Agreed - people have even been labelled 'morally reprehensible' for saying they go to the pub regularly, even though they obey all rules and follow all guidelines while doing so.

People regularly get called 'selfish' by posters who fail to realise that their own viewpoint is equally as selfish, just for different reasons.

It's all a bit pathetic really.
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There's proportionality in that selfishness though.

You may consider people who call anti-maskers selfish, to be selfish in their own way, because the selfishness of anti-maskers is increasing the risk of transmitting a potentially deadly virus, no? Is the selfishness of pro-maskers, worse than that?
 
I'm all for getting busy living, but it has to be with changes at the moment. SARS-CoV-2 is here and we need to live with it, I doubt it will go away for many years.

Hygiene and distancing is the primary weapon against the virus at the moment, it won't always be. We have a far better understanding of influenza viruses which has enabled treatments such as oseltamivir and zanamivir to be found in addition to the primary medical intervention, vaccines, as well as supportive care. We only really have prevention and supportive care for COVID-19.

Vaccine will be a huge part of the "end game", when they're available, and it won't be anywhere near as long as the post fears.

The influenza vaccine is extremely effective against the viruses it's targeted against and comparing vaccines for flu and covid-19 doesn't really make sense imo.
Flu is caused by hundreds of different types of influenza viruses, each with their own surface proteins which are what the body reacts to to attack and kill. There's 4 strains A, B, C D with multiple subtypes of each. Type A in theory has almost 200 different combinations of surface proteins (different combinations of H and N) and we have seen about 2/3 of them. We simply can't vaccinate people against all influenza viruses.
SARS-CoV-2 is one virus and whilst there may be slightly different strains, the surface proteins are the same. It doesn't take a genius to see the difference between flu and covid-19 vaccinations.

The difficulty we have with Covid-19 is that you pass it on before you show symptoms whereas with flu you are most infectious after symptoms show so, again, the best weapon we have is prevention. Reducing the chances of transmission by simple means, by as many people as reasonably possible is the main intervention at the moment. So in order to protect your elderly mam, your mate with diabetes, the carer who comes in to see your nana and everyone else they have contact with, we must follow simple preventative measures.
 
Frijj said:
There's proportionality in that selfishness though.

You may consider people who call anti-maskers selfish, to be selfish in their own way, because the selfishness of anti-maskers is increasing the risk of transmitting a potentially deadly virus, no? Is the selfishness of pro-maskers, worse than that?
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I'll wear a mask but I'm also mindful of the fact that it's here to stay. I just can't see an end to this. Even if we get a vaccine there will be a clamour for the continuation of mask wearing for as long as they can be argued to at least provide a chance of reducing the spread of viral infections. It's the normalising of mask wearing as a society that I have an issue with. If people don't understand that there are psycho social consequences of mask wearing then they maybe hold different values to me. I suppose that's my problem.
 
rudd said:
I'm all for getting busy living, but it has to be with changes at the moment. SARS-CoV-2 is here and we need to live with it, I doubt it will go away for many years.

Hygiene and distancing is the primary weapon against the virus at the moment, it won't always be. We have a far better understanding of influenza viruses which has enabled treatments such as oseltamivir and zanamivir to be found in addition to the primary medical intervention, vaccines, as well as supportive care. We only really have prevention and supportive care for COVID-19.

Vaccine will be a huge part of the "end game", when they're available, and it won't be anywhere near as long as the post fears.

The influenza vaccine is extremely effective against the viruses it's targeted against and comparing vaccines for flu and covid-19 doesn't really make sense imo.
Flu is caused by hundreds of different types of influenza viruses, each with their own surface proteins which are what the body reacts to to attack and kill. There's 4 strains A, B, C D with multiple subtypes of each. Type A in theory has almost 200 different combinations of surface proteins (different combinations of H and N) and we have seen about 2/3 of them. We simply can't vaccinate people against all influenza viruses.
SARS-CoV-2 is one virus and whilst there may be slightly different strains, the surface proteins are the same. It doesn't take a genius to see the difference between flu and covid-19 vaccinations.

The difficulty we have with Covid-19 is that you pass it on before you show symptoms whereas with flu you are most infectious after symptoms show so, again, the best weapon we have is prevention. Reducing the chances of transmission by simple means, by as many people as reasonably possible is the main intervention at the moment. So in order to protect your elderly mam, your mate with diabetes, the carer who comes in to see your nana and everyone else they have contact with, we must follow simple preventative measures.
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Decent level headed post but I notice you mention protecting your elderly mam. I'm not convinced banning family members from contact with their elderly mam who has 3 different types of dementia is protecting anyone tbh. It will be having the total opposite effect. When do we realise this?
 
Frijj said:
There's proportionality in that selfishness though.

You may consider people who call anti-maskers selfish, to be selfish in their own way, because the selfishness of anti-maskers is increasing the risk of transmitting a potentially deadly virus, no? Is the selfishness of pro-maskers, worse than that?
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I see your point, and in the example you quote there's no real argument - however small the benefit of wearing a mask, it's still beneficial, so not wearing one is selfish.

However, people who are obviously in much better position financially than others are advocating the closing down of whole industries - specifically hospitality and travel - because it suits their sensibilities, and accuse others, who want to use and support those industries, of selfishness for wanting to use and support them. They are prepared to throw the livelihoods of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people under the bus to alleviate their own fears.

The ability of those thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people to keep a roof over their heads, feed their families and have a future going forward seems to mean nothing to them - and that to me is also a selfish way of thinking because, while ostensibly purporting to care about people who may catch the virus they are advocating the destruction of many, many more lives and livelihoods in order to achieve that.
 
sambantam82 said:
I'll wear a mask but I'm also mindful of the fact that it's here to stay. I just can't see an end to this. Even if we get a vaccine there will be a clamour for the continuation of mask wearing for as long as they can be argued to at least provide a chance of reducing the spread of viral infections. It's the normalising of mask wearing as a society that I have an issue with. If people don't understand that there are psycho social consequences of mask wearing then they maybe hold different values to me. I suppose that's my problem.
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What are the psychosocial consequences of wearing a mask?
Jap Stammer said:
I see your point, and in the example you quote there's no real argument - however small the benefit of wearing a mask, it's still beneficial, so not wearing one is selfish.

However, people who are obviously in much better position financially than others are advocating the closing down of whole industries - specifically hospitality and travel - because it suits their sensibilities, and accuse others, who want to use and support those industries, of selfishness for wanting to use and support them. They are prepared to throw the livelihoods of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people under the bus to alleviate their own fears.

The ability of those thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people to keep a roof over their heads, feed their families and have a future going forward seems to mean nothing to them - and that to me is also a selfish way of thinking because, while ostensibly purporting to care about people who may catch the virus they are advocating the destruction of many, many more lives and livelihoods in order to achieve that.
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I wholly agree, there are significant economic implications for containing COVID-19 and we absolutely need to be mindful of those, because upsetting the economy will result in adverse health outcomes for people, so you end up swapping one consequence for another.

Advocating for longer, more severe lockdowns of course is the other end of the spectrum from asking people to wear masks, so I wholly agree expecting the closure of workplaces, etc is selfish, but mandating masks I believe to not be selfish really - I don't think masks intrinsically impact businesses in any meaningful way, do they?
 
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rudd said:
I'm all for getting busy living, but it has to be with changes at the moment. SARS-CoV-2 is here and we need to live with it, I doubt it will go away for many years.

Hygiene and distancing is the primary weapon against the virus at the moment, it won't always be. We have a far better understanding of influenza viruses which has enabled treatments such as oseltamivir and zanamivir to be found in addition to the primary medical intervention, vaccines, as well as supportive care. We only really have prevention and supportive care for COVID-19.

Vaccine will be a huge part of the "end game", when they're available, and it won't be anywhere near as long as the post fears.

The influenza vaccine is extremely effective against the viruses it's targeted against and comparing vaccines for flu and covid-19 doesn't really make sense imo.
Flu is caused by hundreds of different types of influenza viruses, each with their own surface proteins which are what the body reacts to to attack and kill. There's 4 strains A, B, C D with multiple subtypes of each. Type A in theory has almost 200 different combinations of surface proteins (different combinations of H and N) and we have seen about 2/3 of them. We simply can't vaccinate people against all influenza viruses.
SARS-CoV-2 is one virus and whilst there may be slightly different strains, the surface proteins are the same. It doesn't take a genius to see the difference between flu and covid-19 vaccinations.

The difficulty we have with Covid-19 is that you pass it on before you show symptoms whereas with flu you are most infectious after symptoms show so, again, the best weapon we have is prevention. Reducing the chances of transmission by simple means, by as many people as reasonably possible is the main intervention at the moment. So in order to protect your elderly mam, your mate with diabetes, the carer who comes in to see your nana and everyone else they have contact with, we must follow simple preventative measures.
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Really good post thanks for posting
 
Frijj said:
I don't think masks intrinsically impact businesses in any meaningful way, do they?
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Nope - I have no issue wearing a mask and, while it's law to wear them, I will continue to do so. I don't want it to be a permanent thing though, and I worry that we will never get to a point where it is deemed 'safe' enough to discard them.

The media, and to a lesser degree, forums like this have ingrained such a sense of fear and dread into people that public opinion may demand we wear them even for outbreaks that were previously regarded as insignificant.
 
Frijj said:
What are the psychosocial consequences of wearing a mask?
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Do you not think it will have some kind of detrimental impact on young people. Particularly within schools. If not you must be living on a different planet to me.
 
Jap Stammer said:
.
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Good point
SAFCOldie said:
^OP realising the reality, good lad & analysis, very good to see. The more this happens the sooner we get back to normal.
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It wasn't his comments/analysis :lol:

And again, how does this in anyway help get back to normal? You've been "awake" for ages and you're still under the same restrictions and haven't been able to do owt about it.
 
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dangermows said:
People keep banging on about getting back to normal. But what's so not normal now?

From a personal point of view I now wear a mask in a shop. Wow. I can go in pubs now, and only difference is I'm not stood amongst ten deep crowds at the bar. Damn. Instead of wfh three times a week I'm wfh for 5. Not ideal but not the end of the world either.

Only thing I miss is live gigs tbh.

Edit. Can see how it'd be a bit of a mare if you work at a school. But then staff are basically saying social distancing is impossible anyway so doesn't sound like it's actually happening.
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Travel restrictions are the main issue personally, apart from that I’m not really fussed with how things are. Masks don’t bother me the short time we have to wear them and pubs have been better since they re opened, as you say no standing ten deep at the bar and instead it’s table service (at most places) like on the continent which is far better
 

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