Christian Bakers Win "Gay Cake" Supreme Court appeal

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No its not. Its about the message. I'm your standard non racist lefty who believes in gay rights, but if a gay man asked for a racist message on a cake I would refuse, as I would if a black man asked for a homophobic message. But do I have a problem serving Black or gay people - certainly not.
Nah mate, my analogy is as close a comparator as I can get. Actually, a gay baker refusing to make an anti-gay marriage cake that a Christian requested is probably the closest I could get.

You could refuse to make a homophobic or racist message because there are already laws in place that could get you in the dock for spreading homophobic or racist hatred.
 


It’s very similar, a business refusing to do something because they don’t like it.

If they are willing to write support straight marriage then refusing to write support gay marriage is discrimination.


Race, religion, sexuality- they are all protected attributes in law.
Politics and political opinion aren't though. A person wasn't discriminated against just their political message. Not that discriminated against is the right term there. Disagreed with is more accurate.
 
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Gay marriage isn't recognised in northern Ireland.

My mistake.
Well there we go. Although to be honest, trying to push your view on it on someone in their workplace is a bit like asking me to write "Newcastle are the best team in the North East" and put my name to it.
I won't do it, because I don't believe it.
 
Personally, I believe it is important to be pragmatic and adaptable in your world outlook when it comes to business. Successful enterprise is all about forming relationships with profoundly different varieties of people to do well.

Whilst that doesn’t mean you should be pushed to do something you disagree with, to be pragmatic is an important aspect of maturity.
 
Nah mate, my analogy is as close a comparator as I can get. Actually, a gay baker refusing to make an anti-gay marriage cake that a Christian requested is probably the closest I could get.

You could refuse to make a homophobic or racist message because there are already laws in place that could get you in the dock for spreading homophobic or racist hatred.
No, your issue is you see the religious thing as the front and centre of your argument. Lets take it a step back to make it easier for you.

Asda have a upload your photograph onto a cake service (and I know this because I've used it many times) where you go to a machine and upload what you want onto the cake. This then goes to the bakery bit where it is checked it meets Asda guidelines (no copyrighted or inappropriate images etc). If your request does not meet Asda's guidelines they refuse to make it.

So I use the machine the request a cake showing a Photoshopped Maddie McCann in a suitcase. It goes to the back where its refused because the baker thinks its in bad taste. I'm anonymous to the baker, my image is perfectly legal but refused. Asda will happily let me continue shopping and buy another cake, but , and without discrimination, won't action my original request because it's against there guidelines.
 
My mistake.
Well there we go. Although to be honest, trying to push your view on it on someone in their workplace is a bit like asking me to write "Newcastle are the best team in the North East" and put my name to it.
I won't do it, because I don't believe it.
Bit different, the Asher's weren't being asked to put their name on it or even endorse the message.

If your job is making bespoke cakes, custom printing, bespoke t-shirts etc. you'll be asked to make things you don't necessarily agree with.

If Dave asks you to print 500 flyers saying "Dave's news and booze is the best in town" and you personally think Dave is a prick that and don't go there you'd still take his money because you're running a business.

Do you think every flag and banner in the SOL was made by a MLF? :lol:
 
Bit different, the Asher's weren't being asked to put their name on it or even endorse the message.

If your job is making bespoke cakes, custom printing, bespoke t-shirts etc. you'll be asked to make things you don't necessarily agree with.

If Dave asks you to print 500 flyers saying "Dave's news and booze is the best in town" and you personally think Dave is a prick that and don't go there you'd still take his money because you're running a business.

Do you think every flag and banner in the SOL was made by a MLF? :lol:

Excellent points.
 
No, your issue is you see the religious thing as the front and centre of your argument. Lets take it a step back to make it easier for you.

Asda have a upload your photograph onto a cake service (and I know this because I've used it many times) where you go to a machine and upload what you want onto the cake. This then goes to the bakery bit where it is checked it meets Asda guidelines (no copyrighted or inappropriate images etc). If your request does not meet Asda's guidelines they refuse to make it.

So I use the machine the request a cake showing a Photoshopped Maddie McCann in a suitcase. It goes to the back where its refused because the baker thinks its in bad taste. I'm anonymous to the baker, my image is perfectly legal but refused. Asda will happily let me continue shopping and buy another cake, but , and without discrimination, won't action my original request because it's against there guidelines.
The reason they gave was they wouldn't create it because it flew in the face of their religious beliefs. They have been funded through this by the Christian Institute. Don't sit there saying religion has nothing to do with it, it does.

Funny you mention ASDA and copyright, that's the reason they should have used years ago.

I don't feel particularly strongly about this one way or the other, I do think it's been an interesting case that could have lasting repercussions.
 
The reason they gave was they wouldn't create it because it flew in the face of their religious beliefs. They have been funded through this by the Christian Institute. Don't sit there saying religion has nothing to do with it, it does.

Funny you mention ASDA and copyright, that's the reason they should have used years ago.

I don't feel particularly strongly about this one way or the other, I do think it's been an interesting case that could have lasting repercussions.
So? Asda refuse on commercial beliefs, still does not make it discriminatory or that as a service provider you have to accept every request that comes in.
 
So? Asda refuse on commercial beliefs, still does not make it discriminatory or that as a service provider you have to accept every request that comes in.
The equality and diversity act protects certain characteristics, incuding sexuality and religion. That's the so. That's why it's dragged on for 4 years.

They didn't refuse of commercial grounds, they refused on religious grounds.

Personally I think that while they should have just filled the order after accepting it, when they knocked it back this should have ended with bad word of mouth and a couple of negative reviews.

I'm disgusted at Northern Ireland being treated separately from the rest of the UK and am sure the DUP will push to be equal to the rest of the Union.
Scotland agreed gay marriage seperately to England and Wales iirc.
 
I personally believe businesses should have the autonomy to provide goods and services at their own whim. I understand that at the extreme end of some examples this causes a legal issue however.
 
If it's a Christian Bakers i.e. that's their demographic, making cakes for Christians, then you would suspect that if they are quite hardline bible bashers they won't accept gay marriage.
They'll happily make a cake for anyone but when it comes to being asked to express a view on a cake, I see why they wouldn't want to do it.

If however they're a bakers who happen to be Christian and the sell cakes to anyone, I can see why people are disgruntled they didn't follow the customer's order.
But where do you draw the line? Would you expect them to ice a cake with the slogan "Hitler was right"? I wonder if they would ice a cake to help someone get over the trauma of an abortion.

It's their business and if they don't want to do something, they don't have to do it. It's now up to the cake buying public as to whether or not they'll give them their custom after the way they dealt with this customer.
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There is a difference, sexuality is a protected attribute under law, support Hitler isn't.

No business should be allowed to discriminate against any of the protected attributes. What message does it send to gay people if businesses won't do business with them?

What if the cake said 'Happy Wedding Dave & Lesley' - would the cake shop be ok to ask if Lesley was a man or a woman before the baked it?

Politics and political opinion aren't though. A person wasn't discriminated against just their political message. Not that discriminated against is the right term there. Disagreed with is more accurate.
It falls under the definition of indirect discrimination as it could easily be argued only gay people would be likely to request that.

Yes. I do not believe that any entity should be compelled to provide good or services they do not wish to provide, for ANY reason. That is not the world we live in, in 2018, so ofcourse we abide by the current rules.
For any reason? so if I open a shop, you'd be happy if I refused to serve black people - is that the standard you'd accept in 2018???
 
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There is a difference, sexuality is a protected attribute under law, support Hitler isn't.

No business should be allowed to discriminate against any of the protected attributes. What message does it send to gay people if businesses won't do business with them?

What if the cake said 'Happy Wedding Dave & Lesley' - would the cake shop be ok to ask if Lesley was a man or a woman before the baked it?

I'd like to think they wouldn't ask as it's surely none of their business.

The message it sends out is "We're homophobic bakers who have no problem believing someone came back to life 2000 years ago, but we're against the idea that two men or two women can love each other"
 
So? Asda refuse on commercial beliefs, still does not make it discriminatory or that as a service provider you have to accept every request that comes in.
A business should not be able to refuse anything on discriminatory grounds. How would you feel if you were gay and nobody would do business with you?

I'd like to think they wouldn't ask as it's surely none of their business.

The message it sends out is "We're homophobic bakers who have no problem believing someone came back to life 2000 years ago, but we're against the idea that two men or two women can love each other"
A good point, but I think if you want to do business in the UK then you should have to meet standards and one of those standards should be that you do not discriminate in this way.
 

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