Ashes 5 test - The Oval

[McGregor]

Their bowling attack has been way better. Its currently the best in the world imo.

Yet archer has the best figures in a match all series, two five wicket hauls and is the second highest wicket taker in the series. Not to mention the most expensive bowler I believe, is an Australian.

No doubt they have the best attack in the world, as expected when you have the world number one bowler in your team. But they have by no means been any better than England in this series for bowling.

 

[JohnSmithUK]

Could also argue if smith didn’t get injured when he did it would be 3-0 Aussies. I don’t disagree with you like but it’s all ifs and buts.

Smith's injury helped Australia, it brought Lasagne to the spotlight.

 

[safcpelaw]

Day in durham today with the mrs what’s the best bar to get this on lads ?

 

[rentaghost]

Aye I mean yes Smith is a freak but because hes a freak this series has just been the usual for him. Not like a Bothams ashes.

All evidence suggests hes going to tour the world aftr this and grind all attacks into the dust slowly and methodically even while carrying a really average batting order.

Plenty times at Headingley England got reprieved.

Its impossible over a five test series to argue the result isn't accurate.

Yeah

Tbf you’re basing this on just two Tests in the Caribbean where we totally screwed up selection (shock) by omitting Broad and asking Curran to open in the first Test then he only bowled in first innings of second Test where he did ok as second change.

He was player of the series against the No 1 side in the world just last summer. He’s gutsy, got something about him and makes things happen. He should have been in at Old Trafford, there is no doubt about that now and he deserves more respect than comments about farting it down at 80mph, imho.

its two tests in the Caribbean when he didn’t have conditions in his favour and won’t have conditions in his favour almost everywhere abroad and at times in England. The next time he is selected on a flat pitch where it isn’t swinging the argument changes on its head because being gutsy doesn’t really come into play. I stand by OT selection, there was no conventional swing there, it was flat and he would have been expensive. I was wrong to use the ‘farting it out’ analogy though. Using terms like that to embellish a point is never a good thing. He bowled beautifully as well due to being a highly skilled performer exploiting the conditions he needs.

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Good article that

 

[The Rat]

Yeah

its two tests in the Caribbean when he didn’t have conditions in his favour and won’t have conditions in his favour almost everywhere abroad and at times in England. The next time he is selected on a flat pitch where it isn’t swinging the argument changes on its head because being gutsy doesn’t really come into play. I stand by OT selection, there was no conventional swing there, it was flat and he would have been expensive. I was wrong to use the ‘farting it out’ analogy though. Using terms like that to embellish a point is never a good thing. He bowled beautifully as well due to being a highly skilled performer exploiting the conditions he needs.

Good article that

he should have played at Old Trafford like, Overton actually outbowled Archer, but it was a negative selection

There has hardly been any swing in this game, Curran and Marsh only ones to find it. I think that is the point, he finds swing when others don't, and he causes problems

I get where you are coming from, and I don't for one minute think he is anything other than what he is, a 4th seamer, but I think we have missed a trick in this series

I'd have had him in for Woakes earlier too who I think has been really poor this series personally.

Yet archer has the best figures in a match all series, two five wicket hauls and is the second highest wicket taker in the series. Not to mention the most expensive bowler I believe, is an Australian.

No doubt they have the best attack in the world, as expected when you have the world number one bowler in your team. But they have by no means been any better than England in this series for bowling.

I think the bowling has been a slight issue at times, first innings and Old Traffords we majorly cocked up like.

I don’t think it is papering over the cracks really. They’ve both been dropped numerous times, Smith out off a no ball, like I said them getting to substitute an injured player (for the first time ever) who made a crucial contribution while we had to play with ten for all bar 4 overs of an entire game. The weather has also been more kind to them than us overall. They’ve bowled well, however, take nothing away from them in that department. Other than that we’re two evenly matched sides and if little things had gone our way instead we could easily have won this series.

I agree to an extent

I certainly dont go along with this narrative in the media that Australia are easily the best side and have comfortably won

we are 2 very very eveningly matched side, and I think we'd have won if Jimmy had stayed fit personally. He'd have been the best bowler in the series, better than Cummins and Archer, he is that good
BTW

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Agree with this premise, the whole "retain the Ashes" concept is very strange, Australia celebrating without even winning the series, there is no other sporting contest decided this way.

If Strauss's side in 10/11 had drew 2-2 would they have celebrated as much?
It needs to be treated as one off series, if a series finishes 2-2 you share the Ashes for example, I have always thought this by the way, its not because we aren'twinning

 

[rentaghost]

he should have played at Old Trafford like, Overton actually outbowled Archer, but it was a negative selection

There has hardly been any swing in this game, Curran and Marsh only ones to find it. I think that is the point, he finds swing when others don't, and he causes problems

I get where you are coming from, and I don't for one minute think he is anything other than what he is, a 4th seamer, but I think we have missed a trick in this series

I'd have had him in for Woakes earlier too who I think has been really poor this series personally.


I think the bowling has been a slight issue at times, first innings and Old Traffords we majorly cocked up like.


I agree to an extent

I certainly dont go along with this narrative in the media that Australia are easily the best side and have comfortably won

we are 2 very very eveningly matched side, and I think we'd have won if Jimmy had stayed fit personally. He'd have been the best bowler in the series, better than Cummins and Archer, he is that good

I respect your opinion but nobody would have had Curran in for Woakes before Headingley. Woakes had been very good for England for some time up until that point. Both Curran and Woakes should have been tailor made for those conditions in the first innings at Leeds but Woakes unpredictably bowled terribly. I’m surprised you are suddenly writing him off on the back of a couple of poor games though. He’s a good bowler off his game. The only realistic time to pick Curran would have been OT and we will have to agree to disagree as to whether he would have bowled well there. The ball got softer much earlier there which made conventional swing much more difficult. Unlike anywhere this series in this test the ball has stayed hard and shiny well into 70 plus overs due to a less abrasive wicket and outfield.

 

[The Rat]

I respect your opinion but nobody would have had Curran in for Woakes before Headingley. Woakes had been very good for England for some time up until that point. Both Curran and Woakes should have been tailor made for those conditions in the first innings at Leeds but Woakes unpredictably bowled terribly. I’m surprised you are suddenly writing him off on the back of a couple of poor games though. He’s a good bowler off his game. The only realistic time to pick Curran would have been OT and we will have to agree to disagree as to whether he would have bowled well there. The ball got softer much earlier there which made conventional swing much more difficult. Unlike anywhere this series in this test the ball has stayed hard and shiny well into 70 plus overs due to a less abrasive wicket and outfield.

I would have honestly, I think he has been poor all summer, very expensive, and a yard of pace down. Root has never wanted to bowl him for a reason.

I'd seen more than enough in the first 2 tests, he is another who seems to stay in the side because he can bat a bit, rather than his bowling, I dunno if he is not fit. I was at every day of the Lords test and I said it all through it.

Been off his game since the world cup. Couldn't believe the media reaction to leaving him out at Old Trafford, should have been sooner and his performance int his test shows it was the right decision.

If Woakes is bowling at this pace and this erratic, there are countless new ball bowlers in England who could have done a better job IMO

I am not writing anyone off, he has been an international quality bowler at times, and I am a big fan, but an Ashes series last 5 tests, you don't get countless tests and we haven't won, if bowlers are that far off their game, don't play them. You have to be proactive.

Its the same as batting Roy at top of order, him and Woakes weren't working for me, and the changes that needed to me made seemed obvious.

 

[TopCat]

Harris has been an awful pick mind

They seem to have (and have had for a number of years) and pool of very average batsmen - Harris, Bancroft, Wade, Head, Khawaja , Shaun Marsh, Mitch Marsh etc etc who dip in and out of the team every so often. I'd love to see the stats on how many times Khawaja has been dropped.

They've managed to exist in spite of these players because of the brilliance of Smith and Warner. Now Warner looks like he might be on the decline so it's all on Smith and teams will focus on that. There will be a time where teams figure Smith out and work out a plan to him.

Their bowling attack has been way better. Its currently the best in the world imo.

2 of the 4 are world class (Cumminns and Hazelwood) whereas the others are no better than our set of bowlers. I'd say Anderson, Broad and Archer are all better than Starc, Pattinson and Siddle
But Cummins particularly has made the difference here

 

[The Rat]

They seem to have (and have had for a number of years) and pool of very average batsmen - Harris, Bancroft, Wade, Head, Khawaja , Shaun Marsh, Mitch Marsh etc etc who dip in and out of the team every so often. I'd love to see the stats on how many times Khawaja has been dropped.

They've managed to exist in spite of these players because of the brilliance of Smith and Warner. Now Warner looks like he might be on the decline so it's all on Smith and teams will focus on that. There will be a time where teams figure Smith out and work out a plan to him.

2 of the 4 are world class (Cumminns and Hazelwood) whereas the others are no better than our set of bowlers. I'd say Anderson, Broad and Archer are all better than Starc, Pattinson and Siddle
But Cummins particularly has made the difference here

Ali on form is more of a match than Lyon too, had outbowled him the previous 12 months and totally outbowled Ashwin in England the year before. Agree with your posts. Not sure Smith can be worked out really, I think it will become more a case of mental fatigue for him. We almost played him at the worst time, a player that obsessed about batting after 12 months off will be as focused as he has ever been in his career.

 

[TopCat]

Ali on form is more of a match than Lyon too, had outbowled him the previous 12 months and totally outbowled Ashwin in England the year before. Agree with your posts. Not sure Smith can be worked out really, I think it will become more a case of mental fatigue for him. We almost played him at the worst time, a player that obsessed about batting after 12 months off will be as focused as he has ever been in his career.

Yeah, you migt be right re Smith.

I'd like to see us pack the offside and bowl a constant 5th stump line (with the occasional surprise bouncer), just back of a length. Let's see his smash the ball over midwicket with that approach. See if we can't wear him out mentally like Giles did to Sachin that time with his leg stump line

 

[Jack Torrance]

Their bowling attack has been way better. Its currently the best in the world imo.

India's is better but this Aussie attack is excellent

 

[rentaghost]

I would have honestly, I think he has been poor all summer, very expensive, and a yard of pace down. Root has never wanted to bowl him for a reason.

I'd seen more than enough in the first 2 tests, he is another who seems to stay in the side because he can bat a bit, rather than his bowling, I dunno if he is not fit. I was at every day of the Lords test and I said it all through it.

Been off his game since the world cup. Couldn't believe the media reaction to leaving him out at Old Trafford, should have been sooner and his performance int his test shows it was the right decision.

If Woakes is bowling at this pace and this erratic, there are countless new ball bowlers in England who could have done a better job IMO

I am not writing anyone off, he has been an international quality bowler at times, and I am a big fan, but an Ashes series last 5 tests, you don't get countless tests and we haven't won, if bowlers are that far off their game, don't play them. You have to be proactive.

Its the same as batting Roy at top of order, him and Woakes weren't working for me, and the changes that needed to me made seemed obvious.

Fair views but Woakes went into the Headingley tests with figures of 7 for 170 from the first two tests. It would have been incredibly harsh to have dropped him on the back of that even if history shows it would have been the right decision.

 

[chunksafc]

Weather set fair for the day, we have to bat time and the runs will come. Not being 3 down by lunch would be a start

 

[sonson]

he should have played at Old Trafford like, Overton actually outbowled Archer, but it was a negative selection

There has hardly been any swing in this game, Curran and Marsh only ones to find it. I think that is the point, he finds swing when others don't, and he causes problems

I get where you are coming from, and I don't for one minute think he is anything other than what he is, a 4th seamer, but I think we have missed a trick in this series

I'd have had him in for Woakes earlier too who I think has been really poor this series personally.


I think the bowling has been a slight issue at times, first innings and Old Traffords we majorly cocked up like.


I agree to an extent

I certainly dont go along with this narrative in the media that Australia are easily the best side and have comfortably won

we are 2 very very eveningly matched side, and I think we'd have won if Jimmy had stayed fit personally. He'd have been the best bowler in the series, better than Cummins and Archer, he is that good
BTW

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Agree with this premise, the whole "retain the Ashes" concept is very strange, Australia celebrating without even winning the series, there is no other sporting contest decided this way.

If Strauss's side in 10/11 had drew 2-2 would they have celebrated as much?
It needs to be treated as one off series, if a series finishes 2-2 you share the Ashes for example, I have always thought this by the way, its not because we aren'twinning

How do you feel about drawing World Cup Finals

 

[stephen cartwright]

Is it too much to ask for the umpires to call no balls and to get 75% of decisions correct, just for once?

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

He's been outstanding this summer, but next year might be a good time to go.
Be interested to see what Jimmy does this winter

They are both saying they want to carry on. I think they both have the Ashes down under in mind. But whether they'll make that remains to be seen. We could do with one of them there imo. Probably not both - need two pacy bowlers imo.

Yet archer has the best figures in a match all series, two five wicket hauls and is the second highest wicket taker in the series. Not to mention the most expensive bowler I believe, is an Australian.

No doubt they have the best attack in the world, as expected when you have the world number one bowler in your team. But they have by no means been any better than England in this series for bowling.

Aye, and the world number three iirc pulled up lame after four overs.

 

[The Rat]

Fair views but Woakes went into the Headingley tests with figures of 7 for 170 from the first two tests. It would have been incredibly harsh to have dropped him on the back of that even if history shows it would have been the right decision.

I can understand you thinking I was talking in hindsight but it was honestly my view

Not been majorly pissed off with it but he’s looked done in to me after the WC

I wouldn’t take Woakes on the winter tours if Anderson and wood are 100% fit. Stone too.

Would you?

How do you feel about drawing World Cup Finals

We didn’t draw we won,

And it’s no relevance to what I’m talking about

Australia haven’t won thr ashes if it’s 2-2 like

 

[TopCat]

They are both saying they want to carry on. I think they both have the Ashes down under in mind. But whether they'll make that remains to be seen. We could do with one of them there imo. Probably not both - need two pacy bowlers imo.

Agree. We need 2 genuine quicks and maybe one of Broad/Anderson down under unless Curran can keep his speeds up then I'd say neither are going
Need to find a spinner too

 

[The Rat]

Agree. We need 2 genuine quicks and maybe one of Broad/Anderson down under unless Curran can keep his speeds up then I'd say neither are going
Need to find a spinner too

We have 2 decent spinners

Ali will be back, people far too dismissive of him, he was brilliant last year

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

Agree. We need 2 genuine quicks and maybe one of Broad/Anderson down under unless Curran can keep his speeds up then I'd say neither are going
Need to find a spinner too

Even if Curran keeps his speeds up, I'd suggest he might be two short for down under. Which is why I think Broad is more useful for that tour.