Anyone clued up on employment law?

bernardbresslaw said:
Yep, strange she's well enough to go on holiday for a couple of weeks (taking sick pay), then she'll still have her 2 week holiday (and holiday pay) for later in the year.
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She doesnt need to give a date, just needs to keep supplying fit notes which will likley keep saying "stress, signed off for two weeks, will review". Is it stress from work or personal life? If it work then ask to meet up and discuss what the issue is and if measures can be put in place to help. Need to play nice boss for now as this could be a long game.
 


PeteFTM said:
If it's an established business, would the existing customers bat an eyelid of a price increase to £36 with the promise of a more reliable service?

Paying close to minimum wage (I'm guessing like a lot of companies, it's only just over) invites problems. It's amazing what a pound and hour extra will get out of a staff member, partly because it makes them feel more valued, despite it not equating to that much.

She'll be lucky to find loyal staff at that wage and I'd suggest that she needs to re-asses her business plan and pricing rather than trying to bin off a stressed worker as it's avoiding the actual problem.
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Her cleaners do feel valued though, she has practically zero staff turnover and they're all like friends to her now - remember that my wife is one of them.
The job is not zero-hours, but part time with hours to suit them. She's got people wanting to work for her all of the time.
 
Strawbs were class said:
She doesnt need to give a date, just needs to keep supplying fit notes which will likley keep saying "stress, signed off for two weeks, will review". Is it stress from work or personal life? If it work then ask to meet up and discuss what the issue is and if measures can be put in place to help. Need to play nice boss for now as this could be a long game.
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It's not from work. I'd imagine cleaning isn't that stressful.
Ken Tishtown said:
Sounds to me like she’s completely incapable of running a business.
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Probably yes.
It's all her fault, I'll give her a call now to tell her the bad news.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
It's not from work. I'd imagine cleaning isn't that stressful.
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Tied in with school holidays and dependants? All I could suggest is to try and sort out a 1-1 meeting, acting as the good employer to see if anything can be done to help to get them back to work. Reduced hours over summer, term-time working.
I take it it SSP shes getting while on the sick. Small employers used to be able to claim it back from the HMRC, dont know if this is still the case.
 
Strawbs were class said:
Tied in with school holidays and dependants? All I could suggest is to try and sort out a 1-1 meeting, acting as the good employer to see if anything can be done to help to get them back to work. Reduced hours over summer, term-time working.
I take it it SSP shes getting while on the sick. Small employers used to be able to claim it back from the HMRC, dont know if this is still the case.
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No, her kids are grown up. I want to leave this now as to prove that she's taking the piss I'd have to reveal detail I'd rather not on here.
I just wanted to know how easy it is to bladder her cos take it from me she's taking the piss.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
It's not from work. I'd imagine cleaning isn't that stressful.


Probably yes.
It's all her fault, I'll give her a call now to tell her the bad news.
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Get a temp in to cover the workload and claim back SSP to cover the sick pay.

She probably has no legal recourse. But it might be worth explaining to her employee the reality of the impacts to the business and get her to understand she may not have a job to come back to at all if it drives them under.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
Second paragraph mate - said it's not her real name.
It's not that she's good, it's just that most of the customers are elderly and they get used to a certain cleaner.
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People buy off people
Irene is the business to the people she cleans for .Just how I see it .If it was all about the owner people wouldn't be going elsewhere or saying we'll wait for Irene.
Employees take the piss sometimes
Part of business
 
Surely there's some kind of contract that stipulates about sickness etc.

Any employer has to give auld Sicknote reasonable time to recover from their illness before considering dismissal but "reasonable" is a bit of a grey area.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
Totally above board, she pays them full holiday pay (pro-rata). The woman is taking the piss (don't want to go into too much detail) and it's disappointing she thinks it's ok to bring down a small business.
She has got 2 weeks booked abroad in a couple of weeks and she's thinking she can get her sick pay for them, then still have her holiday pay for later in the year.
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She can cancel her holidays ,also if someone is on holiday and falls ill they are 100% within their rights to have the holiday reclassified as sick.

As an aside your comment about seeing her on a bus heading to a night out implies you don’t think someone with mental illness should leave the house - I’d be careful with that mindset
 
Nookie Bear said:
She can cancel her holidays ,also if someone is on holiday and falls ill they are 100% within their rights to have the holiday reclassified as sick.

As an aside your comment about seeing her on a bus heading to a night out implies you don’t think someone with mental illness should leave the house - I’d be careful with that mindset
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She's been saying stuff that contradicts the "mental illness" angle.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
She's been saying stuff that contradicts the "mental illness" angle.
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Mental illness isn’t the same for everyone though , I work full time with mine but tell me to go and spend two hours on my own at the metro centre this afternoon and it would totally overwhelm me. It’s something that needs to be dealt with on an individual basis , if the doctor is signing her off then you have to accept that it is legitimate.

As I said earlier just get someone else in while she’s off also consider the amount of ssp she is entitled to per guide below :

Sick pay for part-time workers
Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) is the minimum amount of sick pay employers have to pay when someone’s away with illness. If the worker earns above £116 per week, have been with the company for more than 3 months, and become ill for 4 or more days in a row, they’re eligible. (They must be an actual employee, not just a contractor).
The amount of SSP a worker should be paid is £92.05 per week, and they’ll get this for up to 28 weeks. This amount is pro-rata'd, which means it’s proportional to the amount of hours they work.
So, for someone who works 3 days a week, the employer would pay 60% of SSP - £55.23 per week.
This is the mandatory minimum, of course - depending on their contract, employees might be eligible for full pay covering each day they’re off. This is known as Occupational Sick Pay (OSP), which usually has a limit on how long it lasts, and will be decided by the company’s own policy. And the employee will have to provide evidence of their sickness (like a note from their doctor) if they're away for 7 days or more.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
The sister-in-law (no - and I'm doing you a favour) set up her own little cleaning and ironing business about 4/5 years ago after being off work with pretty serious health issues.
She does all the ironing herself and has 4 cleaners, she charges £32 for a 3 hour clean and pays then just above the minimum wage (my wife - again no - is one of them) and she scrapes by.

A few weeks ago one of her cleaners (Irene - not her real name) went of work with stress (even though she later bumped into her on the bus on the way to a night out on the drink and she seemed ok enough - but I suppose that proves nothing). It's causing havoc with her business as she now can't cover the regular cleans, most are just saying they'll wait until she gets back and don't want a replacement cleaner (so she's losing revenue), a couple have gone to another company, one has decided she can now do without. On top of that she has found out that she has to give her sickness pay.


Irene was supposed to have her 2 week summer holiday soon (she obviously gets holiday pay) but has cancelled as she's on the sick, but presumably she'll then be able to take her holidays later. The sister-in-law has asked her a few times when she'll be back and Irene says she can't give a date.

What is the law re. bladdering her and getting another cleaner? This is going to put her under within a few weeks if she doesn't do something as another one of her cleaners has broke her hand on holiday and when she comes back next week she's going on the sick.
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Can you use an iron? Help out until the lass who's lost her marbles gets back to full health. (yes, I said that for a reaction :-D)
 
She shouldn’t be paying her sick pay, just SSP.
Needs to bring in another person to cover for a few weeks and banjo the lass on the sick on the basis of her being incapable of doing her job. Brutal if she is genuinely ill, but it’s nit your SIL’s fault.
Mrs TT (defo WAD but no) had a small business and had similar issues. People assume the owner is minted but they rarely are.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
She's been saying stuff that contradicts the "mental illness" angle.
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Unless you’re a doctor, you can’t really confirm that though, like much on this thread it’s opinion or gut feeling.

Stick to facts and you might be able to deal with this employee long term (the fact customers want her back suggests she’s a good employee).

Start making assumptions and throwing accusations about and it could get very expensive, very quickly.

Find out if they’re willing to sit down with you.

Ask them to bring a colleague along if they feel it necessary

Ask them what it is with work that’s making them unwell.

Ask when they’ll be likely to return to work.

Ask them if there is anything you can do to speed up their return.

Ask if they’d be willing to complete a stress risk assessment (available from the HSE website) to allow you to better understand what you can do to support.

Agree a timely review to catch up and review progress.

Doing the above will get you to the right conclusion lots quicker and cheaper than blagging it.
 
bernardbresslaw said:
Yep, strange she's well enough to go on holiday for a couple of weeks (taking sick pay), then she'll still have her 2 week holiday (and holiday pay) for later in the year.
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Playing devils advocate but what would your sister have done if Irene got pregnant and had to on Mayer it’s leave, this is part and parcel of running a business, however big or small.

This is why cash flow is key and you don’t spend all the profits.

As the law stands Irene gets her holidays back if she has a sick note covering g that period.
 
Goat Eyes said:
Playing devils advocate but what would your sister have done if Irene got pregnant and had to on Mayer it’s leave, this is part and parcel of running a business, however big or small.

This is why cash flow is key and you don’t spend all the profits.

As the law stands Irene gets her holidays back if she has a sick note covering g that period.
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That's easy. Never employ a female of breeding age.
 

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