Another religion thread

  • Thread starter Deleted member 23273
  • Start date
Kent_Mackem said:
How do you explain the Hindu religion with multiple gods then?

I forget how many thousand different gods that have been recorded through time. All with different names, rules, ambitions and personalities.

I always start with the simplest explanation and go from there. Nothing has yet caused me to need to consider any other explanation than "it's all man-made clap-trap."

That's not to say I am not open-minded. Of course I will change stance should any evidence be produced. Until then it is utterly irrelevant, save for winding up the precious happy clappers and their defenders on here, and I just live my life without giving it a second thought. Much like I don't think of Santa when I am getting in a round at the local.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising given your avatar, you’ve long since nailed your colours to the mast. :lol:

I’ve addressed polytheism in simple terms on the post above yours. Also I’m not interested in convincing you or anyone, this is a journey that the individual needs to take themselves.

What I would say though, I think that the vehement atheism rife in society currently isn’t conducive to individuals finding their own conclusions on life and it’s meaning, if you’re (not you personally) the type of person who fears societal stigma you’d most likely never explore the subject in any meaningful way.
 
Last edited:


Alcoholic_Author said:
Hardly surprising given your avatar, you’ve long since nailed your colours to the mast. :lol:

I’ve addressed polytheism in simple terms on the post above yours. Also I’m not interested in conving you or anyone, this is a journey that the individual needs to take themselves.

What I would say though, I think that the vehement atheism rife in society currently isn’t conducive to individuals finding their own conclusions on life and it’s meaning, if you’re (not you personally) the type of person who fears societal stigma you’d most likely never explore the subject in any meaningful way.
Click to expand...

I just prefer reason and rationality over faith and delusion.

I'm not asking to be convinced. I'm just pointing out that I disagree with accusations I commonly hear about being "arrogant" and "you scientists claim to know everything" etc. No scientist I have ever met has claimed to know everything. Quite the opposite and that is why they chose to become scientists. As for arrogance, as Sam Harris pointed out "you are about as likely to encounter arrogance at a scientific conference as you are to encounter nudity." I'd go further and tentatively suggest it is perhaps verging on arrogance to suppose one knows the mind of a god and therefore his/her intentions and commands.

My 9-year old son told me his mate at school was complaining about "...being forced to be a Christian" just because his parents are happy clappers. Every Sunday morning he is forced to accompany them to church as they fall to their knees and worship something they have been told, and they have accepted, exists. What kind of parents do that to any child, let alone their own? FFS.

Extend it further, several children are told "if you don't believe X and if you don't do Y then you are going to Hell." That is an outrageous thing to say to a young child just to get them to conform and join the gang. Children believe what they are told by elders. They have to do for very good reasons. So it is only the exploitation and indoctrination of children that pushes me into your stated "vehement atheist" mode. Isn't that fair enough?

And it's not just children. Think of all the vulnerable and often intelligent adults who also fall for the clap trap. Possibly yourself included? In extreme cases, all it takes is a skilled Muslim preacher and, as we have seen all too often in the last couple of decades or so, vulnerable adults can be persuaded to believe that rewards await them for killing others along with themselves. That is not only insane it is desperately sad that otherwise intelligent humans can resort to that level of feckwittery.

But you keep believing in your make-believe god. It really does not bother or affect me in any way, but I reserve the right to discuss it on a message board topic thanks. Keep cherry picking the bits you like and ignoring the contradictions. Keep worshipping one of the most unpleasant and uncaring antagonists in world fiction.

Crackers man :)
 
Alcoholic_Author said:
Hardly surprising given your avatar, you’ve long since nailed your colours to the mast. :lol:

I’ve addressed polytheism in simple terms on the post above yours. Also I’m not interested in convincing you or anyone, this is a journey that the individual needs to take themselves.

What I would say though, I think that the vehement atheism rife in society currently isn’t conducive to individuals finding their own conclusions on life and it’s meaning, if you’re (not you personally) the type of person who fears societal stigma you’d most likely never explore the subject in any meaningful way.
Click to expand...

Same could be said of religious people. How many people in Saudie Arabia or Pakistan are going to be openly saying "you know, i think this religion lark is a pile of poop. The idea that 80% of the worlds population believes in some sort of god is an exageration. Its just pure coincidence that almost every politician in USA is a Christian.
There is a serious risk to your life and job prospects in certain places in the world, just for doubting what everyone around you thinks.
 
Kent_Mackem said:
I just prefer reason and rationality over faith and delusion.

I'm not asking to be convinced. I'm just pointing out that I disagree with accusations I commonly hear about being "arrogant" and "you scientists claim to know everything" etc. No scientist I have ever met has claimed to know everything. Quite the opposite and that is why they chose to become scientists. As for arrogance, as Sam Harris pointed out "you are about as likely to encounter arrogance at a scientific conference as you are to encounter nudity." I'd go further and tentatively suggest it is perhaps verging on arrogance to suppose one knows the mind of a god and therefore his/her intentions and commands.

My 9-year old son told me his mate at school was complaining about "...being forced to be a Christian" just because his parents are happy clappers. Every Sunday morning he is forced to accompany them to church as they fall to their knees and worship something they have been told, and they have accepted, exists. What kind of parents do that to any child, let alone their own? FFS.

Extend it further, several children are told "if you don't believe X and if you don't do Y then you are going to Hell." That is an outrageous thing to say to a young child just to get them to conform and join the gang. Children believe what they are told by elders. They have to do for very good reasons. So it is only the exploitation and indoctrination of children that pushes me into your stated "vehement atheist" mode. Isn't that fair enough?

And it's not just children. Think of all the vulnerable and often intelligent adults who also fall for the clap trap. Possibly yourself included? In extreme cases, all it takes is a skilled Muslim preacher and, as we have seen all too often in the last couple of decades or so, vulnerable adults can be persuaded to believe that rewards await them for killing others along with themselves. That is not only insane it is desperately sad that otherwise intelligent humans can resort to that level of feckwittery.

But you keep believing in your make-believe god. It really does not bother or affect me in any way, but I reserve the right to discuss it on a message board topic thanks. Keep cherry picking the bits you like and ignoring the contradictions. Keep worshipping one of the most unpleasant and uncaring antagonists in world fiction.

Crackers man :)
Click to expand...

I don’t understand what the point of this post is other than to give out about religion. Go for it mate, get it all off your chest, but none of that has anything to do with me, my thoughts and beliefs or anything I’ve said here.

ivanthereasonable said:
Same could be said of religious people. How many people in Saudie Arabia or Pakistan are going to be openly saying "you know, i think this religion lark is a pile of poop. The idea that 80% of the worlds population believes in some sort of god is an exageration. Its just pure coincidence that almost every politician in USA is a Christian.
There is a serious risk to your life and job prospects in certain places in the world, just for doubting what everyone around you thinks.
Click to expand...

Sure but I don’t live there and wasn’t what I was referring to.
 
Last edited:
I think the conflict here is God vs. Religion.

Most of what upsets people is Religion and I would agree most of it is shite.

I believe in God, not necessarily scripture.
 
Kent_Mackem said:
How do you explain the Hindu religion with multiple gods then?

I forget how many thousand different gods that have been recorded through time. All with different names, rules, ambitions and personalities.

I always start with the simplest explanation and go from there. Nothing has yet caused me to need to consider any other explanation than "it's all man-made clap-trap."

That's not to say I am not open-minded. Of course I will change stance should any evidence be produced. Until then it is utterly irrelevant, save for winding up the precious happy clappers and their defenders on here, and I just live my life without giving it a second thought. Much like I don't think of Santa when I am getting in a round at the local.
Click to expand...

To be honest the term Hinduism is meaningless and probably Western in origin and simply means the Religions of the Indian People. There are around nine major Hindu philosophies which include the atheist Jainism and Buddhism. Admittedly there are three major Gods: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; Creator, Preserver, Destroyer but these are personifications of cosmic powers: the creative energy; the space that sustains the creation; and change or time in which the creation is destroyed and recreated constantly. Of the Bhakti (worship and devotion) religions most worship Vishnu who it is believed incarnated as Krishna but Rama is considered a previous incarnation. Each of these male deities also has a female companion to represent the balance between positive and negative forces.

Those that worship Shiva tend to practice Kundalini Yoga but they are not mainstream like Vishnites and it is not simply a Bhakti practice.

Of the Hindu philosophies Vedanta is the mainstream and the concepts are Brahman (not Brahma) universal consciousness and Atman the soul or individual consciousness. This is the closest to the Western tradition in some ways but Vedanta is not a Bhakti religion like Vishnism (Krishna) that is even closer to Christianity which is also a Bhakti religion. The main Hindu philosophy you have heard of is probably Raja Yoga and the practice of these forms is called Sanatana Dharma which means The Eternal Way. These religions include Jainism and Buddhism among the.

So as you can see there is no such thing as single unified religion called Hinduism that has hundreds of gods. It is an oxymoron and a red herring in any discussion. Unlike in the West they do have more respect for each other and often accept ideas from other schools of thought. Buddhism came from Jainism but then Buddhism influenced Vedanta to form Advaita Vedanta. In the Sanatana Dharma religions beliefs are not as static and dogmatic as in the West.

I know people will moan about a long post again but you are talking about the development in religions of a people in a single region that go back 10,000 years.

The Indo Europeans arrived in the Indus Valley about 4,000 years ago and brought with them their gods of nature such as Indra (Thunder) and Agni (Messenger). These same people migrated in Iran and eventually Europe where they brought the Indo European language that eventually resulted in most of the European languages of today. The same process occurred with their beliefs and Indra became Thor. Agni became Mercury.

Migration and diversity resulted in so many gods and apart from external nature deities there were also the personification of our human

subconscious archetypes.

The issue isn't really about hundreds of different gods but hundreds of different languages over 10,000 years.
 
Last edited:
Mercia Blackcat said:
I know people will moan about a long post again but you are talking about the development in religions of a people in a single region that go back 10,000 years.

Migration and diversity resulted in so many gods and apart from external nature deities there were also the personification of our human

The issue isn't really about hundreds of different gods but hundreds of different languages over 10,000 years.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And I can see why such belief systems were adopted thousands of years ago. I can see why they were important and how they evolved as you described.

BUT.....

We are no longer living thousands of years ago. Yet still millions in The Western World (take Bible Belt USA as a a depressing example) still believe his bollocks and base their lives around the utter f*ckwittery that is religion in the C21st.

Does anybody really believe that no more than 1 member of US Congress (or Senate - I forget which) does that believe his shite? At leat some of the others must have have some sort of intelligence and rationality and had some sort of education to get to where they are now. Yet they feel they have to lie to the moronic general public who vote for them.
 
Kent_Mackem said:
Agreed. And I can see why such belief systems were adopted thousands of years ago. I can see why they were important and how they evolved as you described.

BUT.....

We are no longer living thousands of years ago. Yet still millions in The Western World (take Bible Belt USA as a a depressing example) still believe his bollocks and base their lives around the utter f*ckwittery that is religion in the C21st.

Does anybody really believe that no more than 1 member of US Congress (or Senate - I forget which) does that believe his shite? At leat some of the others must have have some sort of intelligence and rationality and had some sort of education to get to where they are now. Yet they feel they have to lie to the moronic general public who vote for them.
Click to expand...

It's clear that the Indo Europeans (Aryans) during their migration into Europe, the Middle East and India had a common religious system that was probably first described in the Vedas of the Indus Valley. Gods of the forces of nature and the Vedas describe their fight against the forces of darkness. The Devas led by Indra and the Murats, his heavenly host of warriors, against the Danu who worshipped the serpent, the snake and the retreat of caves. The Danu were probably the indigenous people of the Indus Valley and the snake is part of Kundalini Yoga symbolism so the Vedas demonised the enemies of the Aryans.

These Vedic concepts were essentially preserved as the Indo Europeans migrated through the Middle East, even into the Old Testament where the snake is demonised in the story of Adam and Eve. Except for a very small fringe, no one really worships these gods of nature anymore and science has explained these forces. So we have moved on but with the rise of monotheism the almighty God of the Old Testament simply assimilated the powers of the former gods of nature such as Indra. It is indeed strange that many still believe in a God who possesses such powers in what is simply psychological transference.

Meanwhile back in India the Vedas describe another story of assimilation with the indigenous Brahma placed alongside the former minor Aryan deities of Vishnu and Shiva (Rudra) in a new trinity. However, the Vedas also describe the supremacy of Brahman (universal consciousness) over the gods of the trinity and it is this Brahman that is closer to the God of Jesus in the New Testament. The concept of Brahman and the soul (Atman) is developed in the Upanishads (Vedanta) and this led to the emergence of the major philosophies in India that abandoned the Vedic gods.

This process never happened in the West as the religions became politicised and dogmatic. Anyone that suggested a different perspective was persecuted and demonised as heretics. Satan is an old Hindi word that simply means obstacle to truth but in the West, Satan becomes the Devil, the serpent who tempted Eve and the supernatural source of evil. And by God we know the consequences of that false concept in a rerun of a conflict that originated in Vedic times 4,000 years ago when Indra and the Murats fought against the Danu. Old customs die hard and it's time as a species we grew up.

Evil is a lack of empathy for our fellow human beings and not some external supernatural power.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top